In this episode of Talking About Marketing, Steve and David delve into Dostoevsky’s wisdom on self-awareness and authenticity, explore the delicate balance between cynicism and trust in Hope for Cynics, confront the dangers of superficial AI-generated engagement on LinkedIn, and analyse Fiverr’s bold new ad campaign that claims “nobody cares” if you use AI as long as the results speak for themselves.
Welcome to this episode of Talking About Marketing, where we’re diving into some deep and sometimes challenging themes.
First, in the Person segment, we find wisdom in Dostoevsky’s enduring quotes, unpacking how his views on self-awareness and authenticity resonate in our modern, often superficial world.
Next, in the Principles segment, we explore Hope for Cynics by Jamil Zaki, a book that navigates the line between cynicism and trust, with takeaways on how small businesses can maintain genuine connections in an increasingly sceptical society.
Moving into Problems, we tackle the trend of using AI to generate engagement on LinkedIn, questioning whether superficial comments truly foster meaningful relationships or if they’re diluting the platform’s value.
Finally, in Perspicacity, we review Fiverr’s new ad campaign that boldly claims “nobody cares” if you use AI, so long as the end result delivers—raising the question of whether transparency or results really matter most in the age of AI.
Get ready to take notes!
Talking About Marketing podcast episode notes with timecodes
01:15 Person This segment focusses on you, the person, because we believe business is personal.
Dostoevsky on Truth and Self-Understanding
In this episode’s Person segment, Steve and David delve into the philosophy of Fyodor Dostoevsky, exploring some of his most powerful quotes and their relevance to both personal growth and business. From insights on self-deception to the courage required for truth-telling, they reflect on Dostoevsky’s gritty observations and how they apply in today’s world, particularly for small business owners. Steve recounts his own experiences as a theatre critic, where speaking the truth can feel more challenging—and necessary—than offering easy flattery.
The conversation deepens as they discuss Dostoevsky’s assertion that many betray themselves for nothing, often due to fear or cowardice. David and Steve relate this theme to the world of small business, encouraging entrepreneurs to push through self-doubt and put their ideas out into the world, even if it feels vulnerable. They further explore the existential need to create meaning, both in life and in business, emphasizing that a lack of purpose can lead to a trapped, cynical mindset—a struggle Dostoevsky understood deeply.
Dostoevsky’s musings about unseen prisons resonate with Steve and David’s discussion of modern technology, likening smartphones to “ankle bracelets” that keep us tethered to distractions and conformity. They observe how social media encourages surface-level thinking, deterring thoughtful expression and reinforcing a fearful, mob-driven culture. As they dissect these ideas, they advocate for a conscious approach to technology, urging listeners to resist the allure of passive consumption and embrace the challenge of carving out a meaningful, self-directed path.
13:45 Principles This segment focusses principles you can apply in your business today.
Overcoming Cynicism in Business and Life: A New Hope for Marketing
In this Principles segment, Steve and David explore insights from Hope for Cynics by Jamil Zaki, examining how cynicism impacts modern life and what small businesses can learn from it. Although Steve finds the book overly padded with anecdotes, he acknowledges Zaki’s valuable observations on the epidemic of cynicism we face today. Zaki distinguishes between ancient cynics, who were non-conformists with a belief in humanity, and modern cynics, whose outlook is shaped by mistrust and the belief that the world and people are inherently untrustworthy. This shift has infected various aspects of society, including politics and cultural discourse, leaving many feeling hopeless and isolated.
To counteract cynicism, Zaki suggests embracing scepticism rather than mistrust. While cynicism assumes the worst, scepticism prompts us to seek evidence and clarity before forming opinions. David highlights how this approach can be beneficial in small business, particularly in decision-making. Rather than succumbing to fears about economic conditions or industry trends, business owners can examine evidence, assess risks, and make informed choices. By adopting this type of clear-headed, evidence-based approach, small business owners can avoid knee-jerk reactions and build a resilient, growth-oriented mindset.
Zaki also stresses the importance of trust, noting that when we show trust in others, we often inspire them to act with integrity. Steve reflects on a marketing email he received from a company that leaned heavily into fearmongering by suggesting that neighbours might report each other’s financial misdeeds. He criticises this cynical approach to marketing, noting how it fosters mistrust rather than community. Instead, Steve and David advocate for marketing that encourages positive engagement and builds relationships, arguing that trust-based approaches create loyal, satisfied clients and a stronger, healthier brand.
25:15 Problems This segment answers questions we've received from clients or listeners.
The Problem with Inauthentic LinkedIn Engagement: When AI-Generated Comments Go Wrong
In this Problem segment, Steve and David tackle an issue that lurks beneath the surface of professional networking on LinkedIn: the rising trend of AI-generated comments as a substitute for genuine engagement. This conversation was sparked by insights from Richard Bliss of BlissPoint Consulting, shared in the Sandler Worldwide How to Succeed podcast. Bliss argues that while posting content on LinkedIn has limited reach—often only about 10% of your followers see it—commenting on others’ posts, especially those of potential clients, can increase your visibility and connection opportunities. Steve and David agree with the general advice to engage thoughtfully, which they see as aligned with their long-standing approach to social selling.
However, Bliss takes his advice a step further, suggesting that if you’re unsure how to comment meaningfully on a post, you could use ChatGPT to generate ideas. This is where Steve and David find themselves at odds with Bliss’s approach. They express concern that relying on AI to craft comments can lead to inauthentic interactions that ultimately erode trust. Steve likens this practice to “comment spam,” a form of hollow engagement that could harm the integrity of LinkedIn’s platform if it becomes widespread. For professionals seeking genuine connections, surface-level AI-generated comments undermine the very goal of LinkedIn—to foster meaningful professional relationships.
David underscores the potential long-term impact: if LinkedIn becomes overrun with AI-generated “gunk,” the platform risks losing its appeal as a space for serious professional engagement. In an experiment to test Bliss’s approach, Steve plans to post a comment about Bliss’s views on LinkedIn to see if Bliss engages directly or if his response bears the hallmarks of AI-generated fluff. For Steve and David, this experiment is a way to stand by their principles of authenticity while calling out the creeping problem of shallow, AI-driven commentary on professional platforms.
31:15 Perspicacity This segment is designed to sharpen our thinking by reflecting on a case study from the past.
Nobody Cares (But Really, They Do): AI in Marketing and the New Fiverr Campaign
In this Perspicacity segment, Steve and David examine Fiverr’s latest ad campaign, Nobody Cares: The Musical, which playfully addresses the shifting public attitude towards AI in creative work. The ad’s catchy tune drives home a clear message: clients don’t care if you use AI as long as the final product meets their expectations. This campaign arrives at a time when many professionals, including Steve, are navigating this very issue. In his own work, Steve recalls how he excitedly explained to a client that AI was helping him expedite a project. The client’s response? A dismissive, “I actually don’t care”—highlighting the very sentiment Fiverr is capitalising on.
David observes that the ad reflects a remarkable cultural shift. Within a year, public opinion has moved from scepticism about AI to acceptance, with a focus squarely on results rather than processes. He acknowledges that while clients increasingly care less about the “how” behind a project, they remain intensely focused on the “what”—does it work? Is it high-quality? The ad, by juxtaposing a lively musical format with blunt honesty, strikes a chord by acknowledging that, ultimately, clients just want deliverables that meet their standards.
However, Steve raises a note of caution. While the ad’s message is appealing, he’s wary of using platforms like Fiverr due to concerns about quality control and security, particularly with freelancers from diverse legal jurisdictions. While Fiverr promises efficiency and skill, there’s always the risk of receiving subpar or even compromised work. For Steve and David, Fiverr’s ad brilliantly captures a modern truth, but whether it’ll win over cautious users like themselves is another question.
Transcript This transcript was generated using Descript.
A Machine-Generated Transcript – Beware Errors
TAMP S05E06
[00:00:00] Caitlin Davis: Talking About Marketing is a podcast for business owners and leaders, produced by my dad, Steve Davis, and his colleague at Talked About Marketing, David Olney, in which they explore marketing through the lens of their own four P’s, person, principles, problems, and perspicacity. Yes, you heard that correctly.
[00:00:27] Apart from their love of words, they really love helping people. So they hope this podcast will become a trusted companion on your journey in business.
[00:00:39] Steve Davis: Dun dun dun. Dun dun dun. From Dostoevsky with love. Do you think that would have worked as a James Bond title or just Mist.
[00:00:52] David Olney: I think it depends if you do the dodgy accent. With the dodgy accent, yes.
[00:00:56] Steve Davis: But otherwise, it’s a doctor no from you. Absolutely.
[00:01:05] Caitlin Davis: Our four Ps. Number one, person. The aim of life is self development. To realise one’s nature perfectly. That is what each of us is here for. Oscar Wilde.
[00:01:22] Steve Davis: In the person segment, uh, we’re going to take a run at this over the next couple of episodes. There was a collection of really interesting quotes from Dostoevsky, uh, Fyodor Dostoevsky, the great, one of the great Russian writers of all time. I remember reading Crime and Punishment, uh, when I was living overseas, uh, in Hungary.
[00:01:46] And it just, because the weather’s quite bleak there, it was just perfect for getting into his dystopian view of the world. Have
[00:01:54] David Olney: you read much? When I first got access to audiobooks, one of the first things I went and looked for was all the great Russian literature. And I remember going, there’s not just one recording of these books, there’s several.
[00:02:07] And I just went through and picked the most amazing voices. And I think I spent most of a, a summer in Gaule when it was above 35 degrees, listening to dismal Russian literature was great.
[00:02:22] Steve Davis: There’s a lot that’s covered, but um, there’s around about 16 or so quotes here, we’re going to do 8 of them today.
[00:02:27] Here’s the first one from Dostoevsky, and we’re doing this in the person segment because I think there’s some interesting things for applying to our lives. Above all, don’t lie to yourself. I think that’s pretty orthodox, straight down the middle advice. Pretty decent advice, and it seems more obvious than it actually is.
[00:02:48] David Olney: It seems obvious, and so many people will say they want to know the truth, but how often do people really want to know the truth?
[00:02:56] Steve Davis: You can’t handle the truth!
[00:02:59] David Olney: Nope.
[00:03:00] Steve Davis: How do you know that you’re not lying to yourself? Oh, that would actually take us back to Wild Creature Mind. Which we talked about last episode, the Steve Bedolf book.
[00:03:13] Uh, because that part of our brain, That communicates physically to us, would
[00:03:18] David Olney: be giving us pretty strange felt sensations,
[00:03:22] Steve Davis: heartburn, palpitations, headaches, all sorts of things, tightness
[00:03:28] David Olney: in your chest, not in your stomach, and again the whole point of someone running totally in left brain, fixated on their one idea, or their one emotion as if it’s the whole world.
[00:03:40] And very often people who are stuck in that state really can’t find their truth or anyone else’s truth. Number
[00:03:47] Steve Davis: two, your worst sin is that you have destroyed and betrayed yourself for nothing.
[00:03:54] David Olney: Very typically Dostoevsky in saying that if you do not stay true to your own path then nothing good can come of it.
[00:04:04] Steve Davis: It’s also a little bit bleaker than that because he could actually be saying. That, it all ends up being nothing anyway, but along the way you’ve been a bastard, you’ve actually been horrible to yourself and others, and it’s still for nothing, as opposed to at least living life bringing some sort of joy and comfort to others.
[00:04:25] David Olney: Yeah, this is a precursor for a couple of the other quotes that there is always the bigger picture with Dostoevsky of, Can you create meaning in your life, in the world, because you are responsible for it? And to link this back to small business, this is going to become a constant theme of these Dostoevsky sectors, or these Dostoevsky segments, is that really, if you’re creating a small business, and you need to get people to believe in what you’re creating, you need to believe in it, and you need to be able to explain what you believe in.
[00:04:59] Otherwise, how are you going to get anyone to know, like and trust what you do?
[00:05:03] Steve Davis: That sets up for number three, actually. Uh, man has it all in his hands, and it slips through his fingers from sheer cowardice. And this speaks directly to the, not just the person, but to small business. Cause it’s sometimes scary to put your ideas out there.
[00:05:20] They’re out there to be chopped down. Um, and probably the most common reason people push back and they don’t blog, for example, is, Oh, what if I’m wrong? What if someone disagrees with me? And that is cowardice coming through as a convenient excuse to, to hold back. And we just know that that’s very detrimental because then no one knows about us.
[00:05:44] David Olney: No. And the brave thing is to just have another go when you learn something new and say, Hey, I’ve got an update for my previous blog.
[00:05:51] Steve Davis: Number four, the best way to keep a prisoner from escaping is to make sure he never knows he is in prison. Now this is very much in the personal realm and I think it’s at a society level.
[00:06:06] We, I do liken the, you know how if you’re on day release from prison or home detention they give you an ankle bracelet. I have taught people wearing them. Oh, they’ve been allowed out for the day. Okay, so It just is with them all the time and it beeps. I think our smartphones are the ankle bracelets that we hold in our hand, and we don’t know we’re in prison, but we are imprisoned by them.
[00:06:35] We, I forget the staggering figure of how many of us, the phone is never more than one meter away from us, 24 hours a day. And that animal habit is crafted thanks to all the work of Mark Zuckerberg and all his people, um, to keep us habitually going back and back to this prison that is dressed up to not be a prison.
[00:07:02] It’s very, I think where the world will look back, if we do ever get some decent headspace again, we’ll look back on this era and go, wow, that was a really dark patch where humans, um, Basically shrank the world to something that was 10 centimeters by 20 centimeters and black.
[00:07:23] David Olney: And where everything became mediated down to bright colors and short slogans.
[00:07:29] Steve Davis: And one of the things, number five, that flows on from this, um, Dostoevsky’s quote, Tolerance will reach such a level that intelligent people will be banned from thinking so as not to offend the imbeciles. And I don’t think you have to be overly smart to see what happens in the public discourse in these social media channels.
[00:07:52] You try and have an intelligent conversation or put something out there that has nuance and everyone’s ready to pile on.
[00:07:59] David Olney: Again we are in the midst of cancel culture and the thing we really need is for cancel culture to be cancelled.
[00:08:04] Steve Davis: That would be good, we’re going to push that to the extreme next episode when we talk about Woody Allen’s autobiography.
[00:08:10] But, I know there are people Who have been getting their flu shots and their COVID vaccinations, but they don’t share it publicly anymore because they know this is going to be a whole tribe of anti vaxxers and others who will just pile on with conspiracy theory after conspiracy theory and it’s just not worth it.
[00:08:31] And that is, I think, what Dostoevsky foreshadowed in that quote. Number six, nothing in the world is harder than speaking the truth. Nothing is easier than flattery. That’s very true, and I encountered that recently with my theater reviewing, because I went to see the new play by David Williamson called The Puzzle, and myself, Samuel Harris were the only reviewers, the only critics, who said this is the best.
[00:09:04] Bad. This is actually a suboptimal play. I said it in really, vividly dramatic terms because I was so let down. I love David Williamson and this play was a horrid piece of rubbish that, in fact, I even got a little note from Peter Gurr saying thank you for having the courage to say it. To speak up like that.
[00:09:30] And yet, there’s a whole lot of people who do theatre reviews for these online magazine places. They just waltz in. They love being the center of attention. They love skimming across for the largesse of all the free tickets. And, oh, they gushed over it. Just gushed. Of course, they were the ones whose quotes were used in all the, uh, State Theatre’s promotional material, obviously.
[00:09:55] And, I think that’s Dostoevsky. Speaking the truth is hard. I hated having to write that review. I did not, it’s not how I like to be, but I had to speak the truth, and it was painful.
[00:10:05] David Olney: You know, I think in some ways the more painful filter there is how many people read the play before the play was put on and flattered when they could have spoken truth.
[00:10:17] So how alone does the author feel That he’d got positive feedback from people he trusted, before it went out in the world. When perhaps some people close to him, could have said, One more edit mate, it’s not up to your normal standard.
[00:10:31] Steve Davis: Funny you mention that, because I did say one of the things about the title, The Puzzle, is how puzzled I was that no one had spoken up in confidence to David.
[00:10:42] in that process. Uh, so yep, we’re both on the same sheet there. Number seven, the mystery of human existence lies not in just staying alive, but in finding something to live for.
[00:10:54] David Olney: You agree? Absolutely. As someone who nearly finished a PhD on Camus and Sartre, you know, meaning is what life is all about. And if you understand the world from an existential perspective like Dostoevsky, you believe you have to find your own meaning.
[00:11:10] And then bring it to life, and keep it alive, and keep it growing. So again, there’s a link to small business. There’s no reason for your small business to exist, unless you believe there is. And if you stop believing, it will stop flourishing.
[00:11:25] Steve Davis: The responsibility is on us to create the fabric of meaning in this world.
[00:11:31] I mean, John You, you, you, you know, name dropped Camus and start there. Uh, but if we think of, um, John Lennon, uh, from the Beatles, he’s saying, whatever gets you through the night, he’s saying the same thing. However, you make sense of the world. However, you need to make sense of the world is all right. It’s all right.
[00:11:52] David Olney: Just make sense of it and keep making sense of it.
[00:11:56] Steve Davis: Last comment for this episode. We’ll come back for some more next time. You sensed that you should be following a different path, a more ambitious one. You felt that you were destined for other things, but you had no idea how to achieve them. And in your misery, you began to hate everything around you.
[00:12:13] How do you summarize that?
[00:12:15] David Olney: Unfortunately, that is the psychopathology that I saw the last couple of years I was teaching. In students who’d gone from being enthusiastic to being cynical about everything.
[00:12:26] Steve Davis: And we talk about the consistency of misery, don’t we? Hmm. Because it becomes quite reassuring to be In suffering misery the whole time, because then when you get let down again and you, you see more let down than maybe there is, it just reaffirms that you’re right.
[00:12:42] David Olney: Yep, you can just keep going.
[00:12:44] Steve Davis: It’s not me, it’s the world. It’s very sad. He was, he had his finger on something there. And of course we see that they manifest in some of that negativity that is piles on through social media channels as well. Where. In a disembodied connection with others, you can spew poison and there’s very little that you put at risk yourself.
[00:13:07] Well, that finished on a dour note, but I think that is what we expect from Dostoevsky. Kind of unavoidable. Yes, wouldn’t have been a great title, he wrote so many, kind of unavoidable, could be the lost novel of Dostoevsky, yet to be unserviced. We could write it, we could get AI to absorb some Dostoevsky and write the missing
[00:13:28] David Olney: novel.
[00:13:28] Which, hopefully one of his friends would have said, mate, rethink that title.
[00:13:41] Caitlin Davis: Principles. You can never be overdressed or over educated. Oscar Wilde.
[00:13:52] Steve Davis: In the principles segment this episode, we’re looking at a book called Hope for Cynics by Jamil Zaki. And you put me onto this book, David, and I’m going to go back into my theatre reviewer hat here and say, there are Two to three really profound insights in this book, and 90 percent of it is the worst fluffery, padding, self indulgent string of anecdotes I’ve ever had the displeasure of being forced to listen to.
[00:14:27] David Olney: I won’t disagree with you. It’s an academic psychologist trying to write for a general audience, and somewhere along the line, someone on the editorial team has said Put some human interest in the book. It’ll be better. So listeners, I’ll try and give you the important bit, or the important bits, so you maybe don’t have to read the whole book.
[00:14:48] You can just listen to an interview with the author. And then say thank
[00:14:52] Steve Davis: you to David
[00:14:52] David Olney: afterwards. Well, that’s always appreciated. So, key thing he’s arguing is that actually the principal difficulty we’re living through at the moment of our era is an epidemic of cynicism. And he draws the distinction between the ancient Cynics in Greece and Rome.
[00:15:11] And the ancient Cynics were an interesting bunch. They were non conformists who believed in humanity, in cosmopolitanism, and living in accordance with nature. And they were serious non conformists. They would walk around the world naked, uh, Diogenes was famous for sleeping in a big clay jar in the market.
[00:15:30] They would steal food, they would do all sorts of strange things. They would wee in public if they felt the need, just to get a response. I just call that Friday night. Again, Friday night in most cities. But modern cynicism is essentially the set of beliefs. The world doesn’t care. The world will do something mean.
[00:15:51] People don’t care. People will do something mean. The world’s going to screw me over, so I better screw it over before it gets me. And this is what he’s saying. We’re in an epidemic of And sadly, he’s right. Politics has become incredibly cynical. Um, so many cultural discussions at the moment become incredibly cynical.
[00:16:13] So once he’s established that the rest of the book is what you can do to try and counter cynicism. And he uses ancient thought again to try and counter it. He says the first thing you can do is try to be skeptical rather than be cynical.
[00:16:29] Steve Davis: And what does he mean by that?
[00:16:30] David Olney: And that’s what I was about to explain and good on you for jumping in.
[00:16:33] So skepticism means I don’t believe you until you show me some evidence. Or I don’t know what to believe. I’m going to find some evidence. So, whether someone else is being cynical or you’re being cynical, ask the questions. What evidence led you to believe that? What evidence led me to believe that? And if people can’t answer that question, go, well, why don’t we together go and find some evidence, so we both understand this, and perhaps can agree on the evidence, rather than disagree about what we’re talking about.
[00:17:06] Steve Davis: Which reminds me, I taught some media literacy classes at Walford, Many years ago, and I remember saying to them, when you see a headline come through on the news, and you’re starting to feel a strong emotion, ask yourself, Is this an emotion that the writer or the editor has conspired or confected to make you feel, as opposed to taking a deeper breath and looking for what the essence of the story is beneath the, uh, the Barnum and Bailey?
[00:17:36] David Olney: Yep. So really, we’re into the world of type 1, type 2 thinking. Type 1 being very fast, you instantly respond. Type 2 is you slow down and go, hang on. Why am I feeling this? Why am I thinking this? What’s my evidence? What was my process? So, this is the slow, more scientific way of trying to address cynicism.
[00:17:57] And particularly for small business in the context of we have to make a decision about what to invest in next year. Which bit of the business are we going to grow? Ah, but the economy’s stuffed and the political situation’s terrible. Well, what’s your evidence for those two things? And once you’ve outlined your evidence, do you still need to take action next year?
[00:18:18] And if you take action on the basis of your evidence, and you’ve thought about what’s going on, and you’ve got a solid argument to underpin what you want to do, you’ve gone beyond cynicism, you’ve used skepticism, now you have a plan. So that’s probably the first half of the book. The interesting part in the second half of the book, and all of the book is too long, But the ideas are still very powerful.
[00:18:43] Is, you know, Zaki’s own research on, if you show people some trust, more often than not, they will live up to it. Because we’re such a social species, if you show people mistrust, it gives them a license to behave poorly to you. If you treat people as if you trust them, and you give them an opportunity to do something where they’re trusted, the vast majority of people will try and live up to trust, because socially, biologically, historically, it’s so important.
[00:19:16] So where you can, trust people, because you will get better behavior back.
[00:19:25] Jamil Zaki: Ernest Hemingway once said, The best way to find out if you can trust somebody is to trust them. He was half right. Trust doesn’t just teach us about people, it changes them. It’s a gift they repay. A reciprocity mindset means understanding this. Leaps of faith are actions inspired by that knowledge.
[00:19:46] Deliberate bets on other people. Where preemptive strikes bring out the worst in others, leaps of faith bring out their best. Especially when people feel our belief in them. Trust is most powerful when people offer it loudly. Clearly giving others the chance to show us who they are. Loud trust can look irrational.
[00:20:08] Someone loans their car to a new friend. A manager delegates a sensitive task to a junior employee. Online daters fly across the country to meet up. But it’s precisely that rash, uncounting quality that makes trust most powerful. In laboratory studies, people who invest in others in uncalculating ways, quickly or without knowing the odds of being repaid, are more likely to inspire others to earn that trust.
[00:20:36] That doesn’t mean it comes naturally. Our cynical minds play movies of betrayal on repeat. Trust is powerful, but also frightening, especially for those of us who have been burned before, but leaps of faith come in all sizes. We can start small, loaning our friend a bike instead of a car. Or giving a new employee a less critical task at first.
[00:21:01] Mixing loud trust with a dose of skepticism allows us to build relationships warmly and wisely.
[00:21:11] David Olney: Certainly my example of this in years of, you know, teaching at university and then mentoring people and working with organizations is a thing called the Pygmalion Effect, worked out by psychologists and teachers in the 1960s that really captures this point. Treat people like they’re going to do great things.
[00:21:29] And guess what? They perform better than they did before you start treating them that way.
[00:21:35] Steve Davis: So the two main levers here that we’re talking about is one, trying to adopt that Um, type 2 thinking where possible, if we don’t catch ourselves before we fly off the handle with a, um, just going along with the cynicism for the sake of it, just pause and double check.
[00:21:52] Yep, what’s my evidence? Why do I believe this? And the other one is, Give, show some trust to others, and it’s typically going to be a self fulfilling prophecy that they’re going to follow like with like.
[00:22:06] David Olney: Yep. Give some, get some. Trust tends to flow in
[00:22:08] Steve Davis: circles. Now, interestingly, having just read the book, I was very conscious when an email came through, which brings us strictly into the world of marketing.
[00:22:18] We used a company called The Depreciator up in Queensland to do a depreciation schedule on a property, and now we just get their marketing emails. And one came through this week with the subject line, David, you might have more to fear from your neighbor than the ATO. Now, let’s see how this fits in with the Hope for Cynics book.
[00:22:38] It says, I’ll just read you this here. Hi Steve, they’re watching you. Your neighbours, that is. In the 23 24 tax year, the ATO received tip offs about dodgy dealings from more than 47, 000 people. In the last five years, there have been more than 250, 000 tip offs. You can read more about those here, and they’ve got a link to it.
[00:23:02] Then it says, the ATO pitch this as largely ordinary people wanting to right wrongs that affect the broader community. Sort of a community spirited act, but often grudges are a bit more focused than that and come very close to home and often they concern rental properties. Now, we have here the people at the Depreciator going for the lowest common denominator in human reactions, this, this stream of cynicism, and they’re fueling it to say, see, it’s a horrible world out there and your horrible neighbours are against you.
[00:23:41] David Olney: Yeah, like, we’ve had this conversation, listeners, about, you know, where are our comfort points on how we create marketing material? Yeah. And this ad is one of those things where we just go, no, never. This isn’t fear of missing out in a positive way. There’s something you could do, there’s something that would improve your life, there’s something that could change your situation.
[00:24:02] Do it now or you’re wasting time. This is, the world is negative and they’re out to get you, and you’ve got to get them before they get you. Or you’ve got to bulletproof yourself before they come for you. Like, it really doesn’t get much better. psychologically uglier than this.
[00:24:20] Steve Davis: No, it’s like, um, they’ll make the world burn and add fuel to the fire because it might meet their needs.
[00:24:29] And to heck with the fact that it’s now staining relationships between humans. As long as they make money out of it, they don’t care. It’s like the Joker in the Batman movies. He doesn’t want the money. He’s got all the money. He just burns it. Very cynical world. And so, never using that company again.
[00:24:49] David Olney: And for anyone who thinks, oh, maybe you could pull an ad like this once and get away with it if it got more business.
[00:24:56] Think about what people drawn in by an ad like that are going to be like when they interact with you. You’ve just tipped them into full blown cynicism, paranoia, and now you’re going to try and get money out of them?
[00:25:14] Caitlin Davis: Our four Ps. Number three, Problems. I asked the question for the best reason possible, simple curiosity. In
[00:25:28] Steve Davis: the problem segment, I want to address a problem that’s wrapped up with something good. Uh, we saw a conversation that, um, one of our dear friends and clients, Bill Baker, pointed out to us. It was from Sandler Worldwide, because we quite like the Sandler book on advertising.
[00:25:48] And they have a How to Succeed podcast. And they had Richard Bliss from BlissPoint Consulting sharing his insights into social selling on LinkedIn. And his basic message was, putting posts on LinkedIn isn’t necessarily the best way to make use of it. Because LinkedIn doesn’t necessarily show your posts to your followers.
[00:26:10] He says they show them to about 10%. And if you share links in your posts, well, maybe they show them to about 5%. Where the value comes, what it’s looking for, is commenting on your posts by others, by strangers, by new people. So it sort of plays with that network effect. And he’s, so he’s making the point that if you really want to use LinkedIn as a powerful sales and marketing tool, you really should be commenting on the posts of your prospects, the people you’re trying to target.
[00:26:46] Now, I’m with him so far. I don’t know how you’re feeling about this, David, but I hate the cold emails that come from people on LinkedIn. They typically get ignored, or they do get ignored.
[00:26:58] David Olney: Um, I would rather do what he’s suggesting and engage in conversation because it is a more natural thing to write a sentence about what someone else has written.
[00:27:08] Like, this is at least grounded somewhere in positive human behavior.
[00:27:13] Steve Davis: And so his idea is Um, if they’ve said something and you want to get their attention, you can comment constructively on their post or even go up a notch, write your own post and tag them in it. Saying, I just saw David Olney talking on his podcast about XYZ, and there’s some interesting points he wants to make, but I want to say this about it, because then David Olney gets a notification that Steve Davis has talked about him.
[00:27:45] Who’s his Steve Davis go and he goes have a look at the profile and so it’s just leading into that connection Look, I’m with that too. If you have an earnest question, there’s good points I love this and it’s the sort of thing that I’ve been telling people to do since a long time ago but Then he gets into the fact that if you’re not really sure what to say just run their post through chat GPT To come up with some interesting stuff.
[00:28:14] Richard Bliss: Several of my clients are microwave companies for NASA. I don’t know anything about microwave transmissions for NASA, but when they post something, I kind of want to leave a comment. I don’t know what to say. You know who does know what to say?
[00:28:33] ChatGPT can give me some ideas of what I should say to my audience of sales leaders in tech that this post actually is relevant to them. ChatGPT, could you give me some ideas in authoritative voice or humorous voice or sarcastic voice, taking the content that I’m giving you, distilling it down to a 12th grade level or a 12 year old level and making it relevant to a real estate person.
[00:28:56] What would you say about that? ChatGPT is going to pump out a whole lot of ideas for you. And now you’ve got the idea. Oh, I hadn’t thought about that.
[00:29:08] Steve Davis: Now that crosses into problem territory for me, that is comment spam. And if you hang around in these places long enough, you’re starting to see a lot of obviously AI generated gunk, and then it’s just busy talk. And then if you do actually happen to talk together and they discover Your knowledge is skin deep because you don’t really know, you just use trickery to try and hook them in.
[00:29:35] Well there goes your authenticity.
[00:29:38] David Olney: David, you’ve got such a small opportunity to show you’re authentic, in a medium where anyone on planet Earth could potentially add a post. So you want each post to be someone saying something they want to say. Who wants to wade through? 50, 60, 70 comments. If 55 of them were kind of okay written, but pointless?
[00:30:02] Like, this is going to destroy a medium like LinkedIn very quickly if this becomes normal. And LinkedIn is better for rewarding meaningful engagement. in a way that other social media platforms don’t. What a way to potentially undo the least worst platform.
[00:30:22] Steve Davis: And so that’s why it’s in the problem segment, and what we should do is actually to what Richard Bliss is saying.
[00:30:28] Once this is out, I’ll do a post on LinkedIn saying, We saw Richard Bliss say this, and we’ve discussed it in our podcast. And let’s see if you and I both have Richard Bliss pop up in the listing to say, Richard Bliss has looked at your LinkedIn profile. I reckon that’s a good experiment. And whether we get some strange Ambiguous comment.
[00:30:51] Written by an AI. Hmm. I think this one will come from him, but who knows? Maybe. Um, interesting. Intriguing. It could come up to date. It could come from the BlizzBot.
[00:31:06] Caitlin Davis: Our four Ps, number four. Perspicacity. The one duty we owe to history is to rewrite it. Oscar Wilde.
[00:31:20] Steve Davis: In the Perspicacity segment, seeing we were just talking about the use of bots and AI, I thought this would be a fun ad to look at, because in this segment we like looking at campaigns and ads in particular, and ask ourselves, would they work in this day and age? Well this one’s actually only hot off the press, it’s only just been published in the last week.
[00:31:42] It’s a new ad by Fiverr. Which is the site you go to to outsource different tasks and it’s called nobody cares the musical
[00:32:01] Jamil Zaki: We made this ad with AI and Nobody
[00:32:08] Richard Bliss: cares that you use AI.
[00:32:14] David Olney: We get it. You
[00:32:16] Fiver ad: used AI. We just care if it works! If it disrupts! Or
[00:32:21] Jamil Zaki: it converts! Or makes a user dramatically cry. Oh, I love this! Did they use AI? Nobody cares!
[00:32:29] David Olney: Nobody
[00:32:30] Jamil Zaki: cares. AI built this spot. Just make it work fast and he’ll give it a shot.
[00:32:36] Caitlin Davis: Your boss doesn’t care and not when you use
[00:32:39] Jamil Zaki: AI.
[00:32:39] That’s
[00:32:40] Caitlin Davis: TMI. She just wants ROI. Like a pen or a brush, A. I. is only a tool.
[00:32:47] Richard Bliss: So don’t brag like a pro if you grind like a fool. Just show what you do. It’s hazardous. Beyond that, nobody cares.
[00:32:59] Fiver ad: Nobody cares that you use A. I. They care about the results. For the best ones, hire Fiverr experts who’ve mastered every digital skill, including A.
[00:33:08] I. Oh, by the way, did we mention this ad was made with A. I.? Nobody cares.
[00:33:17] Steve Davis: So there you go, there’s a fun musical tune that I think sticks close to the truth, David. Nobody cares if you use AI. Generally speaking, there’ll be some caveats where they do, but at the end of the day, clients want to make sure that you get the job done. So it could be that this is the campaign of its time, because I was actually working with a client earlier this week.
[00:33:43] And for some reason, I don’t want me to go into this, but I wanted to let him know that. This is being done at speed and I can do it because part of the process I’m using is using some benefits from my own bot within ChatGPT. And, which I was quite excited about, it was saving him money, blah, blah, blah. He said, Steve, I actually don’t care.
[00:34:07] Wow. And then, lo and behold, two days later, this ad. And I think we’re all in furious agreement with Fiverr, aren’t we?
[00:34:14] David Olney: I’m amazed how fast we’ve gone from, Oh, is it being produced by AI? To, it doesn’t matter anymore. What matters is, is it a good product? Does it achieve the desired end, you know, outcome?
[00:34:28] That we’ve really, in less than a year, gone from paranoia To acceptance, that if people can use it well, and that’s how they got a good outcome for me, where’s the problem? Hmm.
[00:34:40] Steve Davis: Of course, the dilemma is with Fiverr, I’m still nervous about these sorts of marketplaces, because you’ve got people from all over the world, including some jurisdictions where, let’s just say, The, the policies, the protocols aren’t necessarily equivalent to what we would expect in our system of law.
[00:35:00] And so you don’t know if you’re going to get something plagiarized or buggy or if website stuff’s done, if there’s going to be some back doors left in it, uh, that could be a security vulnerability. So I’m, I don’t use these sorts of marketplaces, but I think the advertising campaign seems to be spot on with truth.
[00:35:21] But then, does it? Will it make someone then move forward to use Fiverr?
[00:35:27] David Olney: Well, that’s the interesting question. Like, if you trust that AI can get you the outcome, can you trust this platform will get you an outcome? So really, it’s very good marketing because it’s juggling putting these two things together as if by accepting one, you’re accepting both.
[00:35:44] So it’s very psychologically sophisticated marketing. And
[00:35:47] Steve Davis: the irony is, It’s quite possible you could do it yourself in using AI without needing Fiverr in the first place. Yeah, so there’s a two edged sword here.
[00:35:56] David Olney: Mm
[00:35:56] Steve Davis: hmm. Nobody cares though, David.
[00:35:58] David Olney: No, only our listeners care.
[00:36:00] Caitlin Davis: Thank you for listening to Talking About Marketing.
[00:36:03] If you enjoyed it, please leave a rating or a review in your favorite podcast app. And if you found it helpful, please share it with others. Steve and David always welcome your comments and questions. So send them to podcast at talkedaboutmarketing. com. And finally, the last word to Oscar Wilde, there’s only one thing worse than being talked about and that’s not being talked about.