From Willie Nelson’s masterclass in brevity to the unsettling world of corporate data harvesting, we explore how sometimes the shortest path to persuasion involves knowing when to stop talking (and when to check those privacy settings).
Willie Nelson shows us why getting to the point isn’t just good songwriting – it’s good business sense, especially when your audience’s attention span is shorter than a country music chorus.
John Cleese reveals why creativity loves company (as long as it’s the right company) and why the Japanese might be onto something with their “juniors first” approach to meetings.
LinkedIn’s quiet data collection for AI training has us wondering if we should be getting premium memberships in exchange for our digital breadcrumbs.
Steve conducts a cheeky experiment with fake business awards that has everyone (except one sharp-eyed Rotarian) fooled.
Get ready to take notes.
Talking About Marketing podcast episode notes with timecodes
01:30 Person This segment focusses on you, the person, because we believe business is personal.
Willie Nelson’s Guide to Not Wearing Out Your Welcome
Drawing from his new book Energy Follows Thought: The Stories Behind My Songs, Willie Nelson shares why sometimes eight lines are better than eighty. His approach to songwriting – get the story right first, then worry about the melody – offers a fresh perspective on business communication. As Steve and David unpack Willie’s philosophy, they reveal why “less is more” isn’t just a cliché when you’re fighting for attention in a world of information overload.
The hosts explore how this meshes with their own experiences in business communication, noting that while verbose marketers might love the sound of their own voice, their audiences rarely share the enthusiasm.
07:15 Principles This segment focusses principles you can apply in your business today.
John Cleese and the Art of Group Think (The Good Kind)
When John Cleese talks creativity, our hosts lean in – especially when he outlines why the best ideas often come from collaboration, provided you’re not sharing the room with idea-killers. David and Steve explore how this mirrors their own experiences in marketing mentorship, highlighting the value of creating spaces where people feel safe to contribute without fear of judgment.
The discussion takes an intriguing turn through Japanese business culture, where letting junior staff speak first isn’t just polite – it’s strategic. As our hosts note, this approach might just be the antidote to the “but we’ve always done it this way” syndrome that plagues many businesses.
15:15 Problems This segment answers questions we've received from clients or listeners.
LinkedIn’s Data Harvest (Or: Why Your Professional Profile Is Training Someone Else’s AI)
In a revelation that had both hosts raising their eyebrows, we learn about LinkedIn’s practice of using member data to train AI models. Steve and David dig into the implications, noting how European privacy laws forced a different approach across the pond while the rest of us clicked “agree” without reading the fine print.
The discussion evolves into a broader examination of digital privacy and corporate transparency, with David suggesting that if companies want to use our data, maybe they should at least buy us dinner first (or at least a Premium membership).
Here are the LinkedIn Scraping Opt Out Instructions, as shared by PerplexityAI:
To opt out of LinkedIn using your data for AI training, follow these steps:
- Access your LinkedIn settings:
- On desktop: Click on your profile picture and select “Settings & Privacy”
- On mobile: Tap your profile picture and then tap “Settings” in the bottom-left corner
- Navigate to the “Data Privacy” section
- Look for “Data for Generative AI improvement”
- Toggle off the option “Use my data for training content creation AI models” 1 3
It’s important to note a few key points:
- This setting is switched on by default for users outside the European Economic Area (EEA) and Switzerland1
- Opting out will prevent LinkedIn and its affiliates from using your personal data or content for future AI model training1
- However, opting out does not affect AI training that has already taken place using your data 1 3
For a more comprehensive opt-out, LinkedIn also provides a separate data processing objection form. However, they note that this also won’t affect training that has already occurred1.Privacy advocates argue that this opt-out model is inadequate for protecting user rights, suggesting that companies should instead use an opt-in model for consent to use personal data for AI training.Remember, if you’re in the EU, EEA, or Switzerland, LinkedIn is not currently using your data to train content-generating AI models due to stricter privacy regulations in these regions. 2 3
20:30 Perspicacity This segment is designed to sharpen our thinking by reflecting on a case study from the past.
The Great Awards Game
From the nostalgic world of “As Seen on TV” badges to today’s proliferation of business awards, Steve and David create a traffic light system for credential credibility. The segment culminates in Steve’s mischievous experiment with a completely fabricated award that garnered genuine congratulations – proving that perhaps we’ve all become a bit too quick to celebrate without verification.
For further reading, Steve has written a blog post on this topic: The Great Awards Swindle: How We All Became Award-Winning Everything.
Transcript This transcript was generated using Descript.
A Machine-Generated Transcript – Beware Errors
TAMP S05E09
[00:00:00] Caitlin Davis: Talking About Marketing is a podcast for business owners and leaders, produced by my dad, Steve Davis, and his colleague at Talked About Marketing, David Olney, in which they explore marketing through the lens of their own four P’s, person, principles, problems, and perspicacity. Yes, you heard that correctly.
[00:00:27] Apart from their love of words, they really love helping people, so they hope this podcast will become a trusted companion on your journey in business.
[00:00:39] Steve Davis: David, you’re familiar with War and Peace, the novel by Leo Tolstoy? I am. I really like it when it’s read by Tandy Newton. Yes, and it’s, I think, considered one of the longest novels ever written. Here’s my summary. If you’re invading other countries, don’t overextend your supply lines.
[00:01:01] David Olney: I think I’d run a slightly different line and that is, if you’re an aristocracy that’s used to a very comfy life, probably pay attention when you’re invaded. I
[00:01:10] Steve Davis: think mine’s shorter and I think Willie Nelson is with me. That’s okay.
[00:01:19] Caitlin Davis: Our four Ps. Number one, person. The aim of life is self development. To realise one’s nature perfectly. That is what each of us is here for. Oscar Wilde.
[00:01:36] Steve Davis: In the person segment, I want to draw our attention to some thoughts and some insights Willie Nelson has shared in a book he wrote called Energy Follows Thought, The Stories Behind My Songs. Fascinating book, there’s about 165 songs are given the full treatment in the book as he goes through and explains the context, what led to them, what ramifications were around them, etc.
[00:01:59] Really interesting in a similar vein to the Johnny Cash book that I mentioned in the last episode What caught my attention for this one? The reason why I thought it was valid to share on talking about marketing is his focus on brevity On cutting long story short and I’ll let him explain the rationale behind that Then David you and I might try and apply this in our work and life
[00:02:29] Content: When it comes to songs I’m a patient man. I don’t try to push or prod them. I just let them happen, just like this book is happening. I never thought about separating my words from my music. They go together like ham and eggs, although unlike ham and eggs, I don’t cook them at the same time. The words always come first.
[00:02:48] I figure that once I get the words right, melodies will appear, and they always have. Get the story down first, and it’ll sing on its own. The energy driving my words remains a mystery to me. Those words have been popping into my head ever since I was a little kid, putting together my first little book of songs.
[00:03:08] And I never questioned that mystery or tried to figure it out. You figure it out, and it’s no longer a mystery. And the thing about mysteries is that they’re fun. And I don’t want to take the fun out of my songs, even those that aren’t funny. I want to keep the mystery, and by doing that, you’re naturally free to interpret them however you like.
[00:03:27] Whatever they mean to you is fine with me, and you probably understand them better than I do. Thank you, Willie.
[00:03:44] To make a long story short, I see nothing to be gained by explanations. No need to try to say who’s right or who was wrong. No need to enter into lengthy dissertations. To make a long story short, she’s gone. I won’t attempt to explain the things that happened. To put in words why she’s not here would take too long.
[00:04:06] It’s all too far beyond the realm of understanding. To make a long story short, she’s gone. That’s song. Was written back in the early 60s. I got help from my good friend, Fred Foster. I like the feeling of to make a long story short, because that’s my mantra when it comes to lyrics. Less is more. You’ll see how some aren’t any more than eight lines.
[00:04:32] In most of my songs, I tend to repeat the choruses two or three times. I love short songs. Say what you gotta say in three minutes or less. Good storytelling is disciplined storytelling. The discipline comes in editing yourself. Understand that your listener doesn’t have all day to hear you moan and groan.
[00:04:52] Moaning and groaning are important. It’s important to get your feelings out so they don’t tear you up inside, but get to the heart of those feelings and keep it to a minimum. In doing so, you’ll have the maximum effect.
[00:05:09] Steve Davis: So that first voice there was Willie Nelson, and then it switched to Ethan Hawke, who was the narrator for the book. Wow. Getting a mass of thoughts down to the heart. Eight lines. That is quite a, an achievement. Are there people in your life, David, you wish had this skill?
[00:05:33] David Olney: I wish most people had this skill.
[00:05:35] I am a firm believer with Willie that the shorter it is in the main the better because it gives you enough to decide if you’re interested and then to decide if you have a question and ask the person to say more. I’m with Orwell and Camus. If you can use less words, use less words. It’s a tough lesson for some of us to learn.
[00:05:54] Again, you like more words, I like less words, and somewhere between us is just right. It’s very much Goldilocks and porridge. And I suppose
[00:06:02] Steve Davis: the thing is, for those of us who do love words, and dare I say, the sound of their voices, um, what Willie reminds us in his Reflections on this is that’s all well and good, but very few people are going to continue listening to something that’s super long.
[00:06:22] So if your ultimate goal is not just to satisfy your needs, but to communicate a message, you are going to give yourself the best chance of getting that done if you put the extra effort in, like that famous saying that I love. Dear son, I’m writing you a letter. long letter because I don’t have time to write you a short one.
[00:06:45] Um, I think the, if we want to achieve the outcome of engagement, then that’s a cross we have to bear. That is a load we have to carry. I think that’s fair to say. Absolutely. You just did it to me then. I did. In fact, this whole segment is shorter than normal. Yes.
[00:07:06] Caitlin Davis: Our four Ps. Number two, Principles. You can never be overdressed or over educated. Oscar Wilde.
[00:07:20] Steve Davis: In Principles, uh, a man Who many of us love and certainly appreciated his comedy through the years as John Cleese. Do you like Cleese’s work? I
[00:07:32] David Olney: didn’t really love Fawlty Towers as a child because it just seemed repetitive and I missed the visual gags But once I discovered movies like The Meaning of Life and you know, The Holy Grail Then I got John Cleese and now with his spoken word stuff.
[00:07:49] I absolutely appreciate him
[00:07:51] Steve Davis: Hmm, well we’ve got a snippet we’re going to play from him in which he’s talking about creativity in planning and using sayings or questions that prompt others when you’re brainstorming together. Things like, would it be even better if, if it’s your building on something that someone has said.
[00:08:12] Let’s have a listen to him firstly.
[00:08:18] Content: I think it’s easy to be creative if you’ve got other people to play with. I always find that if two, or more of us, throw ideas backwards and forwards, I get to more interesting and original places than I could ever have got to on my own. But there is a danger, a real danger, if there’s one person around you, who makes you feel defensive, you lose the confidence to play, and it’s goodbye creativity.
[00:08:43] So always make sure your play friends are people that you like and trust. And never say anything to squash them either. Never say no or wrong or I don’t like that. Always be positive and build on what’s been said. Would it be even better if I don’t quite understand that. Can you just explain it again? Go on.
[00:09:04] What if Let’s pretend. Try to establish As free an atmosphere as possible. And you know, sometimes I wonder if the success of the Japanese isn’t partly due to their instinctive understanding of how to use groups creatively. You know, Westerners are often amazed at the unstructured nature of Japanese meetings.
[00:09:27] But maybe it’s just that very lack of structure, that absence of time pressure, that frees them to solve problems so creatively. for listening. And how clever of the Japanese sometimes to plan that unstructuredness by, for example, insisting that the first people to give their views are the most junior, so that they can speak freely without the possibility of contradicting what’s already been said by somebody more important.
[00:10:00] Steve Davis: Okay, there’s a little bit to unpack here, David. The first thing is, better creativity happens. When you get other heads around you, when I was playing this to you before, you were nodding in fear, Sir Greg. Yes.
[00:10:15] David Olney: Why? Because I’ve seen so many situations where someone spent days and days and days trying to nut something out, and then, Just when they’re tired, go on and talk to someone for 10 minutes who they trust and respect.
[00:10:30] And it sparked the idea that solved the problem. And I saw that so many times in academia. I’ve seen it so many times in, you know, the world of consulting. That really, you can get lost in something you’ve looked at for too long. But when you’re talking to people you respect and trust, and you’re willing to listen to them, and they’re willing to let you have your say, and to add.
[00:10:53] To what each other are saying, it always ends up somewhere bigger than it starts. And the person has more options
[00:11:00] Steve Davis: for their project. That does resonate with my experience too. I mean, in doing the mentoring that I do, just being that fresh set of eyes that are outside the business, um, can often just ask the question, which triggers some coins dropping for someone with their internal knowledge.
[00:11:18] But it just took the inverted commas, dumb question from the outsider, uh, to bring a couple of ends together that were unexpected. And you did, right? Of course, there is a cautionary note he adds, you don’t want someone in this group who is going to be a gate, or a heavyweight, or a blocker. I think that’s really important.
[00:11:41] Where do you stand on that aspect? That’s why I added my two words in, people you
[00:11:45] David Olney: respect and trust. You know, if you have to do something on your own because there’s no one around you respect and trust, do it on your own. Because if you start talking to people you don’t respect and trust, you could go down a rabbit hole, you could give up on your project.
[00:12:01] You don’t know what their motivations are. So don’t put things out there and put good ideas at risk. Save those good ideas for when you can talk to people you respect and trust.
[00:12:12] Steve Davis: And towards the end he references Japan, Japanese culture, and the fact that in his telling of the story, there. Seemingly unstructured meetings, which are structured, have a hallmark that when they open the floor for ideas, they ask junior people to start first, so that the junior person doesn’t have to do it.
[00:12:39] Summon up the courage to contradict or even embarrass a leader by them getting their naive, fresh ideas out the way first, then the leader with more wisdom will have a way to absorb what they’ve said or, or correct them in a nice way. Now that, it does seem very healthy. I haven’t had too much intimate reading.
[00:12:59] Um, interactions with Japanese meeting culture, um, but at the surface level with the way John Cleese is telling it, that does seem like a wise move.
[00:13:09] David Olney: It seems like a wise move. Again, it’s a different perspective on Japanese, sort of, culture than I’ve, um, You know, been led to understand before, which is, this is where the drinking culture after work came.
[00:13:21] It’s the place where everyone is more equal. And when you’ve both had seven whiskeys, you can speak truth to your boss. In a situation where they can take it on board, there’s no harm, no foul. Almost a world of what’s said in the bar stays in the bar. Um, so I’d like to know how that understanding and John Cleese’s understanding fit together.
[00:13:41] But the reality is, either way, getting junior people to ask questions, give their perspective, first knowing it may not be complete, it may not be what we do, but if they’re in the room, we want to hear from them.
[00:13:55] Steve Davis: And the other thing is, uh, in, when we run our planning days, one of the exercises you have, you get people not to verbalise their ideas, because not everyone is comfortable speaking out loud in the group, but to jot them down, I suppose, that would be another way to give an extra bit of confidence, especially to the juniors, or people who aren’t often heard or are spoken over, like I’m just doing to you, because you tried to talk, um, that gives a methodology for them to get equal hearing.
[00:14:22] David Olney: Absolutely. Nominal group technique. Give everyone a post it note and a pencil, and get them to write it, draw it, and then stick it on the board, and then we see all the ideas together, and we can make a conglomeration of everything people thought without anyone having unduly influenced another person. So we’re really finding a way to capture the yes and of the improvised world.
[00:14:47] Don’t let people be negative, don’t let people shut each other down, get the ideas out first, see them all in their entirety. before we start having the dominant person in the room trying to undo the variety in the room.
[00:15:01] Steve Davis: And we think the more we can embrace this, this within our business, our organization, the closer we’ll get to the bright side of life.
[00:15:09] Always look on the
[00:15:15] Caitlin Davis: Our four Ps. Number three, Problems. I asked the question for the best reason possible. Simple curiosity. Oscar Wilde.
[00:15:29] Steve Davis: In the last episode in Problems I referenced a meme. I’m going to reference another one again. Someone was sharing one which was done in that warning style. That LinkedIn. is scraping user data to train its AI tool. And looking into the detail, this one is in fact true. LinkedIn for a long time has been collecting data from users profiles.
[00:15:52] So how we write about ourselves, our posts, other content, which would be conversations to train its AI models. And it was initially done without any mention or any seeking of consent. I know you’re shocked, David. I know you are shocked. Then they ran through some privacy updates, no doubt to ward off lawsuits, um, in which they, We all would have just agreed, because I don’t really read those things, I just agree to them.
[00:16:23] Um, and now the situation is, you can actively opt out, if you wish to. But who’s going to? Without us even talking about it, you probably weren’t even aware. Uh, the, one bit of difference is that this was not the case in the European Economic Area and Switzerland. Uh, they just didn’t even dare do it there, because they’ve got very strict regulations.
[00:16:46] Well done to those, uh, countries. So, here it is. And the other thing is, Microsoft, of course, owns LinkedIn. Microsoft, then, gets access to this data as well for its AI projects. Isn’t it nice how we are voluntarily helping huge corporations, um, Get better at being able to milk more money from us. Noting, Microsoft’s just rolled out its co pilot AI tool into all of its Office 365 features, so that the next round of updates, Richard Pascoe was telling me, the price will be going up.
[00:17:22] Guess what? Because CoPi that is now bound within it, whether you wanted it or not, it’s lovely.
[00:17:29] David Olney: They’re such a lovely bunch of people. The fact that they want to charge us for LinkedIn Premium and learn from us? How about at least offering us a deal? Have LinkedIn Premium for free and can we use your data to train our AI?
[00:17:44] See that would be fair. Yeah, at least give us a choice. Make it a plus sum game. The fact that they’re so cynical, they don’t even think of the plus sum game. It’s almost on a par with, you know, Twitter wanting to use content, well, X wanting to use content to train their AI, which has to be the most racist psycho AI on the
[00:18:02] Steve Davis: planet.
[00:18:03] Well, that would be racist psycho, the X AI. I think the LinkedIn one will be the most narcissistic. Oh, humble braggie AI. Yeah. Can you imagine the blog post that it would write? You know, you’re gonna say, how to cook eggs, and you can say, look, it would say, I am very humbled to be offered the opportunity to take this egg and crack it and cook it at MasterChef level to have been honoured in this way.
[00:18:31] Blah, blah, blah, blah.
[00:18:32] David Olney: It’s okay, that’s why we all spend less time on social media by the month.
[00:18:36] Steve Davis: Long and short. Willie Nelson is just speaking to me. Long story short, if you don’t want to be part of it, I’ll see if I can dig out the steps and put them in the show notes so you can opt out. Will I bother? I don’t know.
[00:18:50] I might. I feel like I want to just on principle actually, because yes, they give me plenty of invitations to pay 99. 95 a month to have the business premium model. I think what you brought to the table would make sense. Yep, you get it for free if you leave this on, and if you don’t, you pay. I think that’d be fair.
[00:19:12] Any last thoughts on this?
[00:19:14] David Olney: Yeah, that everywhere we go, we’re either going to soon be dealing with an AI or being used to train an AI. Yeah. So just be mindful that there really isn’t such a thing as putting a comment out into the ether. And it just sitting there and being on its own anymore. In the world of large language models, everything you basically, you know, type in a digital environment now is going to contribute to the future behavior of an AI.
[00:19:46] Steve Davis: On that note, please follow David and I on LinkedIn, because, uh, we would really love to expand our networks and get to know you, so that the moment you accept, we can turn around and say, Thanks, I’m curious to learn more about you, and I want you to buy our products and services. I say that because we would never do that, but that’s what happened to me as late as yesterday, and if you look through my message, that’s basically par for the course in LinkedIn land.
[00:20:18] Caitlin Davis: Our four Ps, number four, perspicacity. The one duty we owe to history is to rewrite it. Oscar Wilde.
[00:20:32] Steve Davis: So far you’ve heard person, you’ve heard principles, and you’ve had problems. But wait, there’s more. Here’s Perspicacity, bonus addition to this episode of Talking About Marketing. Don’t send any money now, listen to this next conversation as seen on TV. Well, that’s problematic, isn’t it, David? Um, the seeing bit?
[00:20:56] It
[00:20:57] David Olney: is, but it’s the great advantage of doing your Tim Shaw imitation. I’m already wishing I could hide under the table.
[00:21:04] Steve Davis: So in first for Cassidy, uh, there’s a few things all bound together that I want to untangle, hopefully not in too long winded way so that we don’t get the ire of William Dawson. Let’s start with Tim Shaw and Demtel.
[00:21:16] There were a whole lot of TV commercials in the 1990s. He was the Demtel man. He had All those ads for gadgets we probably didn’t need that were overpriced and that were bundled to sort of shift. So you couldn’t really tell what the real value was from anything from, uh, a stripping machine, David. Did you, did you buy one of those?
[00:21:37] David Olney: I
[00:21:37] Steve Davis: think I
[00:21:38] David Olney: sort of, or
[00:21:39] Steve Davis: did you
[00:21:39] David Olney: strip by hand? I judiciously avoided all Demtel products. So you would strip by hand? I made a commitment that I would peel my own potato, strip my own paint. Okay. And I don’t know.
[00:21:50] Steve Davis: Not put myself in danger. Okay, so you stood up to the temptation of this ad for this amazing peeler.
[00:21:58] I kind of thought, if he doesn’t want me to send
[00:22:00] David Olney: money, why should I show interest?
[00:22:06] Content: Peel! Peel! Peeling potatoes and onions is one of the least appealing jobs in your kitchen. Forget it, because now there’s Speed Peeler. An incredible cordless machine that peels spuds in seconds. And onions so fast and easy, you won’t have time to cry. It even removes eyes. And because our peeler has stainless steel blades, it only removes the skin.
[00:22:29] You’ll save time, money, and all that goodness. It’s tough enough to trim asparagus and broccoli. Yet safe and sure enough to peel a ripe tomato, or even a cherry, without peeling your fingers. But that’s not all, cause Speed Peeler is much more than a super fast peeler for all your fruits and veggies. It shaves chocolate for luscious desserts.
[00:22:49] Grates cheese for sauces and omelettes. Or shreds cabbage for coleslaw. Slices strawberries, mushrooms and radishes for great garnishes. It even made all these chips from just one potato. Best of all, it rinses clean under a tap. But there’s more. Le Chef. A knife so sharp it’s scary. A knife that never needs sharpening.
[00:23:09] A knife for the 90s. So throw out the rest, we’ll give you our best. Plus, an end to Food Transfer Trauma! Does your old chopping board drive you nuts? Forget it! Because now there’s Funnel Board! Just squeeze the handle, fold the board, and you have a simple funnel. No more spills, no more waste, what a clever idea!
[00:23:32] Even the handle becomes a funnel. It wipes clean in an instant and is dishwasher safe. What an offer! The amazing cordless electric speed peeler, Le Chef, the knife for the 90s, our revolutionary funnel board, plus Demtel’s 100 percent no questions asked money back guarantee for not 60 or more, but just 29.
[00:23:50] 95. Act now. Ring now, but don’t send any money. That’s right, do not send any money. We’ll bill you. Ring 008 023 025, but don’t send any money. Ring now.
[00:24:07] Steve Davis: All right, so There’s just one of the ads, I apologize for that, um a whole lot of psychology going on there, but one of the things that when those products were in the shop, they had on them this red icon that stood out in the shape of a TV that would say, As seen on TV. And this was there to entice us, David.
[00:24:33] David Olney: To make us think, this is a credible thing. It’s so good that people will spend the money to have it on television. Or to show other people on television. And it was a clever, cynical move. It really was. It was the beginning of using sort of cross media channels to pretend that you were getting validity and credibility from another source when in reality There was no other source.
[00:24:57] It had only always been on
[00:24:58] Steve Davis: Demtel. So they have made their own credential, which they’re then using to sucker us in.
[00:25:08] David Olney: It’s a bit like a self licking lollipop.
[00:25:11] Steve Davis: Wow. But wait, there’s more. Um, here’s the thing, David. They’re making up their own fake credentials. Excuse me, two seconds.
[00:25:26] Here’s the thing, David. They’re making up their own fake credentials. It works well for them. The first mini question is, would those ads still work today? And the answer is, well, they’re still kind of running, so they must work for someone.
[00:25:39] David Olney: I’m guessing at 2am, if you’re awake and watching TV, infotainment must be what you do.
[00:25:47] Steve Davis: And they’d have to work, I mean, they’d get the rates pretty low at that time of day, but they’d work. But The new version of this, I think, are all the awards that are coming out of anywhere. So, for a long time we’ve had the Telstra Business Awards and Small Business Awards, there are the Tourism Awards, the Food Essay Awards, there’s a number of different awards like that, and the application process is pretty intense, and there’s a, you know, a bit of rigor with the panel of volunteers who go through to judge you.
[00:26:24] And I think if you win something like that, it shows there is some rigor in the business. Then you have a whole lot of these, if we think of red traffic light, amber traffic light, green. I put green for those, inverted commas, proper awards, where you really have to put a bit of sweat equity into the application process.
[00:26:44] In the amber one, there are a number of awards popping up now. And That groups have just made up for their target audience. There’s, uh, one I’ve seen called the Freedom Awards that a group of women have crafted, and I’ve noticed it because a number of, uh, people in my network have been flashing these images on their screens saying I’ve been nominated for this award category and these awards and it’s going to culminate in a big awards night, dinner.
[00:27:15] I imagine it’s part of a Marketing strategy by the people coordinating that, they will get QDOS, they’ll get promotional funding, or the ability to sell to the expanded network as a result, and anyone who’s nominated is going to get some spin off effects, because the moment you share something like this, um, On LinkedIn, say hey I’ve just been nominated for this XYZ, you get floods of people patting you on the back and saying congratulations.
[00:27:50] I would put this in the amber category because even though it’s not necessarily a rigorous category. Uh, set up. It’s a bit like every player wins a prize, David. I’d like to get your take on this. I mean, people milk it, they get some value from it, the organisers get some value from it, it probably positions them in favour with small business ministers and other groups.
[00:28:15] It’s probably a clever move. What do you think?
[00:28:18] David Olney: Yeah, it is really the extension of everyone gets a prize. And when everyone gets a prize, no prize has any value. So we really do need to know. That to get this prize, you have to clear a high quality bar. So really, if you can’t tell me why your prize is difficult to win, why would I care if someone won your prize?
[00:28:39] So we really, we’re making people unnecessarily sceptical. Well, actually, no, I’ll restate that. We’re making people unnecessarily cynical. Oh yeah, they got a prize. Yeah, I bet that was real. Well, it may well have been, and they may have done a quality job, but because there are so many unreal prizes now, we’ve become cynical about awards having value.
[00:29:02] And it’s nice to reward people for doing a great job. And devaluing hard work is not good for any of us.
[00:29:09] Steve Davis: And I think this is the ultimate payoff that’s going to happen, is they’ll start having less and less value. It’ll be the law of diminishing returns. Because suddenly you’ll have a million awards you can put up on the window, and the cynical consumer will say, huh.
[00:29:29] However, as we’ve known in the wine industry for a long time, being able to pop a gold or a silver or even a bronze medal sticker on your bottle of wine, even if it was, you know, category 703 for most sulfur drenched wine on the planet, no one reads the small print. They just see the silver medal. So there’s, while we remain uncritical as consumers, Hmm, sadly it’s going to stay with us.
[00:29:52] And then we get right to the red traffic light end of the spectrum, where I David, if I wanted to, we could be listed as the best marketing consultancy in Adelaide, we could have In
[00:30:05] David Olney: Australia, let’s go big time. Yes. Because the email’s offering us this opportunity, saying how amazing we were, and would we like to pay, said we were the best in Australia.
[00:30:14] Steve Davis: And it goes on, and then you see some, uh, competitors and others, um, put these proudly on their website as a badge of honour, and you know what? There’s going to be a certain degree of people, quite a few, who will think, oh, wow, there you go, there’s a bit of proof, and it’s all just fake. And then, at the other end of the spectrum, I deliberately didn’t enter anything in the, um, Australian Podcast Awards, uh, this year, because after last year, I actually asked to see the judges comments, and I realised how Completely divorced from engagement and understanding of the sector of the award category, the judges were, it was laughable.
[00:30:57] It was like having a gluten intolerant person judge best super gluten bread roll category at the Royal Show. You know, it disgusted me to the point that that’s it. No more.
[00:31:12] David Olney: We’re back to credibility again. Mm. Where’s the credibility of the assessment process, the judging process, the standard to which things are being held without credibility in all these stages?
[00:31:25] What’s the point in in winning it? Yeah. A gold medal looks nice. But, when you walk into a wine store now, and so many bottles have some sort of medal on them, do we pay
[00:31:36] Steve Davis: any attention anymore? Less and less, I must say. Less and less. And then, just to play, have a bit of fun with this, I created a fake award image myself, David, just to play in the game.
[00:31:49] And, uh, it’s had Well, I haven’t seen the count. It’s quite a few on Facebook who have sent congratulations. Uh, it’s only just gone up. There’s like 31 likes people have had. There are comments flowing in. It’s had 775 impressions. People are interacting with the thing. It says, Steve Davis, I’ve been nominated the Grand Whimsy Awards.
[00:32:09] 2024, Celebrating the Art of Joyful Innovation. Completely made up. I’ll put a link in the show notes of the blog post that goes with this. Because I just went full out. I’ve got the whole background of the awards there. Just to see how few people actually read the book. The details. Only one person cast any sense of suspicion, uh, Lindsay Davis from the local Rotary Club said, I’ll say congratulations, not a hundred percent sure this is real.
[00:32:43] And I think it, my hat goes off to him for having the, the temerity to mention that, but he knows me well enough to know that he is Steve having a bit of fun. And I, I did it on purpose to say, hey. This is out of control. Something needs to happen. I think maybe it’s just more awareness that there’s a lot of fakery out there, but then again, as we’ve mentioned previously with critics and theatre reviews, our world is geared up for that sugar frosting of just that nice little thing and no one really cares about the substance.
[00:33:18] It might make you think, well, if that’s the case, I’ll join them, but something inside of me just Feels like that’s wrong and I don’t want to play in that sandpit.
[00:33:28] David Olney: No. Aim to get reviews for the quality you provide, not awards that don’t tell you anything about what you do.
[00:33:36] Steve Davis: Ooh. Can I nominate you for best podcast closing sentence?
[00:33:43] You can. I’m not sure I’ll be very excited if I win the award. I’ll send you a badge you can put on your LinkedIn profile. Okay.
[00:33:51] Caitlin Davis: Thank you for listening to Talking About Marketing. If you enjoyed it, please leave a rating or a review in your favourite podcast app. And if you found it helpful, please share it with others.
[00:34:03] Stephen David always welcome your comments and questions, so send them to podcast at talkaboutmarketing. com. And finally, the last word to Oscar Wilde. There’s only one thing worse than being talked about, and that’s not being talked about.