When an FBI behavioral specialist says you can win trust before you speak a word, and AI spam bots try to do the same thing with a $10 Starbucks voucher, you start to see just how wide that gap has become.
A former FBI agent reveals the three silent signals that tell people you are safe to trust, before you open your mouth. David tests them in real conversations this week, with results that surprised even him.
A book about respect has a genuinely powerful idea at its centre. It also has a guest list that raises some uncomfortable questions, and Steve took them straight to the author on LinkedIn.
AI-generated spam has crossed from annoying into insulting. Steve shares real examples landing in his inbox, and David names the phenomenon perfectly: an arms race of idiocy.
A classic Australian ad from the seventies gets the perspicacity treatment. Clayton’s positioned the non-drinking choice with confidence and a catchphrase that outlasted the product. Can a sparkling hops water brand do the same thing today?
Get ready to take notes.
Talking About Marketing podcast episode notes with timecodes
01:15 Person This segment focusses on you, the person, because we believe business is personal.
The Like Switch: What Your Body Says Before You Do
David is partway through Dr. Jack Schafer’s The Like Switch, and the lessons are already landing. Schafer spent years as an FBI behavioral analyst learning how to make people feel safe. His finding: three nonverbal signals do more work than any opening line.
The eyebrow flash, the head tilt, and the smile. Each one sends the same quiet message: I am not a threat. Schafer explains that the head tilt is particularly telling. Exposing the carotid artery, however briefly, signals genuine trust. Dogs do it. People do it without knowing. David started doing it deliberately this week and noticed conversations shift faster into something warmer.
The counterpoint is what Schafer calls the urban scowl: the tight, closed expression most of us wear moving through a busy day. It repels connection without any intention to do so. The remedy is simple, even if the habit takes practice. Breathe. Smile. Tilt your head just slightly when someone starts to talk.
The following excerpt of Jack Schafer is from the I See What You’re Saying Podcast.
13:00 Principles This segment focusses principles you can apply in your business today.
Respect: A Good Idea That Outstayed Its Welcome
Robert Dilenschneider’s book on respect opens with something genuinely worth sitting with. Respect rarely comes up in conversation. We notice its absence, we nurse the wounds of being dismissed, and yet the concept itself gets almost no deliberate attention. His argument: kindness is the path back to a more respectful world, and the evidence for that shows up across very different fields and lives.
Steve and David both found the core idea compelling. The execution is where things got complicated. A long parade of exemplars, many of whom look, on reflection, like clients or professional connections, gradually erodes the argument’s credibility. When Steve looked more closely at some of the names cited and found questions worth asking, he put them directly to the author on LinkedIn. He is still waiting for a response.
David’s takeaway: take the essay, leave the guest list. Kindness builds respect. You probably cannot demand it. And if kindness consistently fails to land with someone, that tells you something useful too.
23:45 Problems This segment answers questions we've received from clients or listeners.
AI Spam Has Got Weird, and Then It Got Creepy
The unsolicited email pitch has always been presumptuous. Now, with AI doing the personalising, it has become something stranger. Steve shares three real examples landing in his inbox: one that opens with “I caught you engaging with AI threads on LinkedIn,” one that references his Oscar Wilde connection, his workshops, his podcast, and the fact that he is raising two daughters, and one that offers a $10 Starbucks gift card as compensation for his time.
Each one attempts the signals Dr. Schafer describes in the Like Switch. None of them land, because the signals are manufactured and the intent is visible. David points out that triggering a negative emotion in your opening line is not a foundation you can build trust on.
The longer arc is where it gets interesting. AI is producing more of this content faster than any human could. AI filters will soon be doing the sorting. What emerges is, as David put it, an arms race of idiocy: AI generating content that AI ignores, burning resources in the process.
The practical advice: do not reply. Replying confirms your address is live and guarantees more of the same.
31:15 Perspicacity This segment is designed to sharpen our thinking by reflecting on a case study from the past.
Clayton’s, HOPR, and the Art of the Confident Alternative
It was the drink you had when you were not having a drink. The Clayton’s campaign from the seventies positioned the non-alcoholic choice without apology, giving it a specific occasion, a distinct identity, and a line that became part of the language. Jack Thompson delivered it with complete conviction, which David notes was genuinely good acting.
Steve has since tried Clayton’s again and was not convinced by what he found. But the advertising principle holds. Confidence and clarity in positioning count for a great deal, especially when you are asking people to consider something they would not normally reach for.
HOPR, a sparkling hops water brand, came through Steve’s social media feed with a different approach: a founder’s personal story of changing his relationship with alcohol and wanting to help others do the same. Steve tried it, then bought more. David tried it and ordered a case. The story connected because it was specific and honest.
What HOPR has in story, it might still build in tagline. Clayton’s had both. The combination is worth aiming for.
Transcript This transcript was generated using Descript.
A Machine-Generated Transcript – Beware Errors
TAMP S08E02
Caitlin Davis: [00:00:00] Talking about marketing is a podcast for business owners and leaders produced by Steve Davis and David o. I’ve talked about marketing. More than 8,000 conversations have taught them something. You can’t read the label from inside the bottle. Everyone needs external perspective through their four Ps person, principles, problems, and purse per cassity.
Yes. You heard that? Correct. They explore marketing with curiosity, generosity, and the occasional gentle eye roll. They hope this becomes a trusted companion on your journey in business.[00:01:00]
Steve Davis: David, can you stay here if I give you a $10 coffee voucher?
David Olney: Yeah, but I’ll stay here without it too.
Steve Davis: Oh, what? I have to rewrite my spam now
Caitlin Davis: our four Ps. Number one person. These are insights for the whole person, not just the business operator. Oscar Wilde, put it this way, the aim of life is self-development to realize one’s nature perfectly. That’s what each of us is here for.
Steve Davis: David James Olney,
David Olney: that’d be me.
Steve Davis: You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say will be used against you in a court of law. You have a right to an attorney. If you cannot afford an attorney, one will be appointed for you. What have you got to say for [00:02:00] yourself?
David Olney: Uh, and
Steve Davis: I’ve always wanted to do that to someone.
David Olney: The Miranda Act.
Steve Davis: Yeah.
David Olney: Okay.
Steve Davis: Uh, even though I misspoke then and didn’t quite get a hundred percent No,
David Olney: no, you would’ve failed Miranda, which meant I’m already outta here.
Steve Davis: Yes.
David Olney: The two with my AI sunglasses. I’ve got the recording to know you didn’t do Miranda. Right.
Steve Davis: Damn
David Olney: man. I’m walking.
Steve Davis: Well, I’m also an ice agent, so I’m above the law.
David Olney: Bang. Well, this is gonna have really poorly ’cause I’m a member of the cartel and my 27 friends are gonna bring a lot of drugs and guns.
Steve Davis: This is not how I anticipated this podcast, the start
David Olney: of this episode.
Steve Davis: So this is the person segment. We think about things that we can apply personally as well as business, and you’ve just, or you are halfway through reading a book by an FBI guy by the name of Dr.
Jack Schafer. He’s a former FBI, special agent and behavior Analyst specialist. The book is called the Like Switch. What do you like about it?
David Olney: What I really like about it, [00:03:00] having read Chase Hughes book, the Behavior Ops Manual over nearly two weeks because as an audio book, it was 38 hours. Is that Jack Schaefer is saying in under 10 more than Chase Hughes said in 38.
And what I really found interesting about Chase Hughes was he argued that there’s all these behavioral things you can do to send out signals that you can be trusted, that you are a safe option before you say a word. And that if you don’t send out those signals, your words. Probably won’t land. And because Chase Hughes did it in such a long-winded blah blah way, I was kind of like, maybe this is not entirely credible, but it’s interesting.
And then to move on next to Jack Schafer’s book, and he starts with, well, if you want to. Impact people. If you want to have an influence over them, you better make sure you’re sending out friendly signals and he starts listing off all the [00:04:00] things you can do. And as a blind person, this was really interesting.
Dr. Jack Schafer: I think we have to pay attention to the, the nonverbal signals initially that tell other people we’re not a threat, that we’re friendly, that we’re open to them, and there’s basically three. Friend signals. The first one is the eyebrow flash, which is an up and down movement of the eyebrows. It’s very quick.
It’s about one 64th of a second really quick. And what that, it’s a long distance signal that tells the other person that we’re, uh, not a threat. So typically what happens is two people will approach one another and they will exchange eyebrow flashes that simply says, I’m not a threat. You’re not a threat.
The second thing we do is we have a tendency to tilt our head to one side or the other as a friend signal. And the reason we do that is because when we tilt our head one side or the other, we’re exposing our carotid artery. And that’s pretty, pretty [00:05:00] vulnerable because if we cut our carotid artery, we’re gonna be dead in a few minutes.
So what we’re telling that other person is, I trust you enough to expose some part of my body that’s very vulnerable. And to give a good example of this, if you. Have any pets, particularly dogs. When you come home and you meet your dog, your dog will sit there and typically greet you by tilting its head one way or the other.
All the dog is saying is, I’m not a threat. And when a lot of times the dog will roll over on its back and want a tummy rub. Everyone says, oh, how friendly. No. What the dog is really saying is, I’m exposing the most vulnerable part of my body because I trust you and I know you won’t hurt me. So it’s a, it’s a sign of trust.
So we typically tilt our head one way or the other, and the last thing we do is we typically smile. And what happens when we smile is we release [00:06:00] endorphins and endorphins make us feel good about ourselves. There’s a golden rule of friendship that says, if I make you feel good about you, you are gonna like me.
So if I smile at you, you smile back. We’re both releasing endorphins. We make each other feel good about ourselves, and we have the tendency to like one another. I always tell people these are kind of not unconscious, but semi-conscious signals that we exchange multiple times during the day.
David Olney: One of the first things he points out is if you watch people really closely. When they start talking to someone new and they wanna make a good impression, they will often tilt their head a little bit, and most people assume it’s because in a loud room we all wanna hear a bit better. Actually. Turns out it’s a mammal trait and that we tilt our head.
To basically show I trust you enough to be vulnerable and make my carotid article V [00:07:00] carotid artery vulnerable. That’s a hard thing to say.
Steve Davis: It is, isn’t it? It’s almost like I was strangling you at the time you were trying to say,
David Olney: yeah, I wasn’t going, so I think I’m okay, but it’s very difficult to say you’re carotid artery vulnerable.
But such an interesting thing. And this week I tried it a few times, and guess what? People relaxed faster, really. Like I could hear the tone of their voice go from, well, this is just a work interaction with someone who’s a customer who might be annoyed at me, or why should I care to? Suddenly this person’s warming up to talking to me and we’re getting on with whatever I needed help with, but also just chatting and I’m like, hang on.
Something so simple is clicking in their brain as a safety signal. It’s amazing.
Steve Davis: Now I think about it. I do tend to do that there. It is a natural, I’ve never thought about it before.
David Olney: People don’t, and that’s the point.
Steve Davis: You cock your head just a little bit to
David Olney: the side. Just a little bit. Yep. And the other thing that [00:08:00] you’ll do is you’ll raise your chin slightly after you’ve cocked your head later in the conversation, which shows I trust you enough, I’m making my whole throat more exposed.
Steve Davis: Mm. Sometimes that is just thinking
David Olney: it is. But the first time is normally. That you’re indicating to the person, this is going well and I want you to keep feeling safe. I’m not a threat and I don’t wanna be a threat.
Steve Davis: Um, but I think that’s a fantastic thing for us all to put into practice. You come to meet someone and in the process of greeting when you.
You don’t do it straight away, but the moment you sit down to talk or you’re standing and you’re about to start talking, just tilt your head a little bit to the side.
David Olney: Yep.
Steve Davis: And that is a signal. Is that your phone, David?
David Olney: Yes. Sorry.
Steve Davis: Okay. Come to my watch. Luckily I like you. Um, so I see I’m no longer cocking my head.
That’s okay. Well, it stop in a moment.
David Olney: It stopped.
Steve Davis: Okay. So you are saying you don’t, the moment you see someone cock your head, but it’s the moment what you’re about to. Shift into talking.
David Olney: Yep. [00:09:00] When you’re starting to interact with them in a way where you want them to listen to what you’re gonna say next.
Steve Davis: Because I think of the, well, 50,000 odd interviews I did on radio. I reckon I always cock my like. As, as you’ve asked your first question.
David Olney: Yep,
Steve Davis: you do.
David Olney: Yep. I’m doing it in now. We do it without even realizing we do it now again ’cause I can’t look at myself in the mirror. I probably haven’t realized I’ve done it, but we never sit absolutely still except now when we try and have good microphone discipline.
But even there we, we move a little bit ’cause we know the mics will let us move around a bit. So it’s just such a great idea that if you want. You are carefully constructed message to land. Make sure you’re also sending out the physical signals that you’d rather be friends that you, you, you’re not sending out potential oph or a threat signals.
Steve Davis: So is there another thing that jumped out at you? It is my next question.
David Olney: Yeah. Basically he said that there is an in-between [00:10:00] face that’s emerged in the modern world, which he calls the urban scowl face, which is that I’m afraid I’m tired, I’m wired. I don’t really wanna listen to you, I just wanna get the outcome I want.
And he said, you know, far too many of us are just going through the day with what he calls the urban scale face and encountering other people with the urban scale face. And it’s no wonder do we get to the end of the day and feel we haven’t connected with anybody
Steve Davis: because it’s repelling people,
David Olney: people, and we’re repelling each other without meaning to nonstop.
Steve Davis: How do you remedy that? Just be aware of it and
David Olney: smile. Be aware you are doing it. Take the two seconds to have a deep breath, smile. Remember why you’re there. Remember that You wanna make a good impression for the right reason.
Steve Davis: I was just in Sydney and I’ve been in Melbourne a number of times. People don’t smile.
David Olney: No, it’s the urban scowl. It’s exactly what he’s describing.
Steve Davis: But in Adelaide, many of us do. Not everyone,
David Olney: but, [00:11:00] but more. Mm. From what people tell me.
Steve Davis: Say again?
David Olney: More people smile, hear from what people tell me.
Steve Davis: Yes, absolutely. You nod your head, you smile.
David Olney: Mm.
Steve Davis: I always do that. I’ll be in Perth shortly and I’ll be doing the same.
I dunno what they’re gonna be like over there.
David Olney: Yeah, you’ll find out What’s the norm there?
Steve Davis: Yes. I’ll report back.
David Olney: Mm.
Steve Davis: Um, so look the like switch. Here’s the question though. Is it accessible, and would you recommend people having a listen or a read?
David Olney: I’m only halfway through so far, and I’m utterly fascinated because this is someone who learned all this stuff.
Using it in the FBI and then went and did his PhD in psychology to actually understand why it all worked. So he’s that interesting guy. He knows it all worked. He was training people to use it even before he totally understood why it worked. So I like the fact that he had practical evidence first and then unpacked it, and he’s a bit of a serious ex FBI agent, but that’s okay.
It’s a short-ish book and it’s full of interesting [00:12:00] things, and he makes the point very clearly. You gotta practice all this stuff if you want to use it to interact with people in the way you want in the world. So, you know, learn the lessons well, he’s a, he’s a bit of a teacher, but that’s okay.
Steve Davis: Is there anything in it apart from those two?
That you’ve used on me?
David Olney: No. ’cause I’m not up to the language bit yet, so I haven’t so, so
Steve Davis: watch out.
David Olney: I haven’t got, you know, ’cause I figure the language bit’s gonna be really interesting. But like you said, if you don’t get the body language right, the language isn’t gonna work on its own. ’cause you haven’t taken the opportunity to send out those initial quiet signals.
Steve Davis: So you will be using some of the language things on me once you’ve embraced
David Olney: it. Oh, inevitably. ’cause practice is awesome.
Steve Davis: In that case, David James Olney, you have the right to remain silent. Anything you say can and will be used against you in a court of law. You have the right to an attorney. If you cannot afford an attorney, one will be appointed for you.
David Olney: Now I’m in trouble ’cause you got Miranda, right?[00:13:00]
Caitlin Davis: Our four Ps, number two principles. These are ideas worth building on. As Oscar Wilde reminded us, you can never be overdressed or overeducated.
Steve Davis: David, what does this spell? R-E-S-P-E-C-T.
David Olney: It spells the Blues Brothers movie and the scene in the diner.
Steve Davis: Yes. With Aretha Franklin.
David Olney: Yep.
Steve Davis: Uh, respect. Now we’re talking about respect. This in the principle segment is actually a little bit linked to the like switch we just talked about in some ways. But this is a book.
We have both, well actually no, you finished.
David Olney: I finished, but really under sufferance ’cause it became repetitive.
Steve Davis: I was into about chapter two and I could not take another word. Oh no, that’s not this [00:14:00] book.
David Olney: No, that’s the Brains,
Steve Davis: that’s the emergence book. That was the Brain, the emergence book. But I didn’t like this one either.
Uh, I can, ’cause it seemed very. Shallow its approach to the topic of respect. That’s a little bit unfair ’cause it did dip, its, um, beak down a little bit deeper.
David Olney: I think it was too many instances of repetition with very slight variation. Yes. And that’s persuasive to a degree, but eventually you go, yeah. You just had another cool friend you wanted to interview for the book.
Steve Davis: And that person is Robert Dylan Schneider, the author, a man, a storied member of the PR profession. And he put this book together and you do get the sense when he goes through the list of the whatever, 15 or 16 or could even be more, um, people from different walks of life whom he’s putting up in front of us as exemplars of, of putting respect into [00:15:00] practice.
It just, I, I just started to get a sense that, hang on. Is this just a lovely way to really make your connection with these people stronger so they not necessarily on purpose, so they bond with you more, but it’s, but. It’s a little gift, a token of you’re with the right person. ’cause I can make you look good.
David Olney: I think it’s that to a degree, because he’s a PR guy and he probably can’t help it. Yeah. But I think the other thing is he probably thought everyone would say something different about how we get more civility in the world by having more respect in the world. I thought, well, I think he thought he would get more answers.
Whereas it seems what he found as he talked to more and more people, the same thread keeps coming up in a hierarchical world, respect could be demanded. And as that’s been dismantled, you then can’t demand respect the way it was historically demanded. And really the way to rebuild respect is [00:16:00] through kindness.
And everyone’s reached that conclusion in slightly different ways and applies it slightly differently depending on, you know, whether they ran one of the best restaurants in the world, or whether they’re a school teacher, or whether they’re a Saturday morning, you know, morning TV program host. Everyone has chosen to be kind.
But firm in their different environments. And that’s a great lesson. But the book could have been three hours, not seven or eight.
Steve Davis: And I think to be fair to Robert in the first chapter where he lays those sorts of principles out, could be the first or second. Uh, I’m with him because yes, I. I think what the world needs to grab hold onto.
In fact, this came up in a political discussion. Someone said, what’s your position? What’s your philosophy? And I said, well, we need a party that believes in thoughtful decency.
Mm,
thoughtful. Because we’re not gonna be muggs. We’re not gonna play stupid games. We’re gonna apply some intellect to things, but [00:17:00] decency, which means we give people respect as humans and we try to do.
What we believe is the right thing for all beyond our immediate needs. Mm-hmm. Thoughtful decency. Um, and so I was with him for that.
David Olney: Mm-hmm.
Steve Davis: But then what happened? And this is what I would love, love your opinion. In fact, let’s have a little snippet of Robert, um, capturing some of those points.
Robert Dilenschneider: Respect maybe one of the least discussed human qualities. Most of us go through life without giving up much thought. It seldom comes up in conversations. The media rarely use the word. It’s not that we don’t care about respect, rather, we tend to just take it for granted. It is my contention that respect deserves well, more respect.
That is more attention, consideration, [00:18:00] appreciation, praise. It is respect for one another that builds healthy relationships. It is mutual respect that creates friendships and enables societies and their organizations to function effectively. It is respect that establishes trust between individuals, between groups, among nations.
It is the feeling of being respected that helps build self-confidence. It, our own self-respect is essential for us to get along in life. But if we don’t think much about respect. We do give a lot of attention to its opposite disrespect. We’ve even created a shorthand version of the word diss, just saying, you dissed me can be enough to start insults flying.
And sometimes fists too countless feuds have started because someone felt disrespected and extreme cases even wars. To put it, simply [00:19:00] being respectful for one another makes this a better world. Failing to show respect can make it a worse place. That’s true not only in our daily lives, but also throughout history.
In fact, a lot of world history has been made by people who used respect as a force for good.
Steve Davis: This has intrigued me. When you’ve got a book like this and you’re holding certain people up as exemplars of what it is to be. Great examples of using respect in daily life. What happens when you know a different side of the story of these people that makes them, not necessarily people whom you would hold or place on that pedestal?
I actually put a post on LinkedIn and I tagged Robert in it as well as the next few people I said. [00:20:00] I’m currently listening to your book. I’ve appreciated your careful application of a respectfulness standard with the experts you quote. But having read Sarah Win Williams’ account of working with Cheryl Sandberg.
Mm-hmm. Cheryl was one of the people he put forward as a great exemplar of this, um, in, in, uh, careless people, Sarah’s book. Mm-hmm. I feel the chapter warrants a rewrite because Sandberg’s words now ring hollow for me and. Furthermore, I caught myself wondering about the piety of some of the other exemplars of respect.
Um, Sol Trujillo, uh, did some good work at Telstra, but there were many questions raised about some contracts that were awarded to an American Telco company run by his protege. According to the Australian Financial Review. There is such a thing as objective truth. So I guess even really crooked leaders, I won’t name any, can accidentally say something true every now and then.
Mm. Like a stopped clock being right twice a day. But I had higher [00:21:00] expectations for the people quote in this book. So Robert, I’m earnestly curious about whether or not you are tempted to revisit chapters should you discover. The people quoted have since deviated from the level of esteem with which you had previously held them, or whether we’re taking a postmodernist approach and separating words and thoughts from whether or not the speaker walked their talk.
I’ve not had a response.
David Olney: I don’t think you ever will.
Steve Davis: I try to do that with kindness and to me it really, it undermined the book.
David Olney: Mm. And that’s the problem with the book is you take away the one idea. And you question the people he chose seeing. They all seem like clients or friends.
Steve Davis: They do.
David Olney: And it’s, it’s one of those books that unfortunately the idea could have been a single essay with almost no examples of how this person used it slightly differently.
Just a 40 minute essay on kindness is the path to rebuilding respect. And if you’d done that without name dropping. [00:22:00] It might have been a really powerful argument, but by going into the name dropping, particularly when some of the names are so questionable, um, it just, it corrodes the value of the argument
Steve Davis: To me.
The saying, quit while you are ahead, comes, uh, comes up because you dead. Right? He had a great concept and it’s good for us all to reflect on and news. But the examples is, oh, oh, now we’re slipping back down the hill. Now we’re slipping back there. It’s um. It’s ruining the suspension of disbelief. Mm-hmm.
If I can use my theater reviewing terms. It broke the fourth wall. Oh, hang on a minute.
David Olney: Mm-hmm.
Steve Davis: This is now sounding like a little reward for a few mates.
David Olney: Yeah. The PR has been a little bit too polished.
Steve Davis: Yeah. So, uh, do we recommend reading or just really reflecting on your summary?
David Olney: No, just reflect on the link between kindness and respect and that you probably can’t demand respect.
But through [00:23:00] kindness, you’re more likely to get respect. And if through kindness you don’t get respect, then you know the person you’re dealing with doesn’t respond well to a positive approach. And you’ve been warned,
Steve Davis: and I’ll finish by saying my question to Robert on LinkedIn was from a place of curiosity, and I do still hold it out with great respect.
If Robert gets to hear this, I would love to know how this line of thought. It impacts your thinking about the book and whether you would revise a chapter or we go forth as it was, and whatever comes, comes.
David Olney: Mm-hmm.
Caitlin Davis: Our four Ps, number three problems. These are the marketing challenges, keeping you up at night. As Oscar said, we ask questions for the best reason [00:24:00] possible. Simple curiosity, no hidden agenda, just genuine interest in what’s actually happening.
Steve Davis: I caught you, David,
David Olney: doing what?
Steve Davis: I caught you engaging with AI related threads on LinkedIn. Ah, that’s weird. Me saying that. How weird do you think it was when I received unsolicited email pitch saying Steve caught you engaging with AI related threads on LinkedIn. What’s your reaction to that?
David Olney: It’s another one of those emails.
That’s the point where I’d close it and, um, set the junk filter to immediately zap anything from the same sender.
Steve Davis: It’s just, I’ve noticed that the. This unsolicited email with spam has been getting ruder and more informal the whole [00:25:00] time.
David Olney: Mm-hmm.
Steve Davis: We know that people buy from people they know, like, and trust.
You’ve got no chance of being liked or known, rather, if, if I’m not gonna like you.
David Olney: Nope.
Steve Davis: And they’re just so, Hey, WhatsApp is another one. There’s another one that I saw recently. It wasn’t even WhatsApp. It was something of that ilk. Hello. What is going on here? This is, it was just, it was the sort of informal communication or greeting you’d give to someone you know deeply, not someone you are hoping to engage in a business deal with.
David Olney: Well, also starting with a negative emotion.
Steve Davis: Mm.
David Olney: You know? Yeah, you’ve been caught out. That’s a terrible way to start interacting with someone because the minute they go negative, they’re going to even be more paranoid or suspicious.
Steve Davis: Yeah.
David Olney: About whatever you say after you’ve triggered a negative emotion.
Steve Davis: So they followed that up with, since you are already exploring ai, um, hello. Hello. Well, we’ve been [00:26:00] using it just with, and talked about marketing you and I for about three years now. Mm-hmm. Um, since you are already exploring ai, thought you might wanna check out this. We just now rolled out an AI revenue agent that responds like a real person, sets up meetings and qualifies leads 24 7.
It essentially takes over for the basic chat bots most sites, and runs 24 7 for half price of what a VA costs. Want me to show you how to ru how it runs for small businesses? No thanks Amber Gomez from AI Gorilla. Um, that is just the worst pitch I have ever seen in my life.
David Olney: No, no. There’ll be, I, I’m sure there’s worst ones
Steve Davis: there.
I’m sure there are, but that’s one. The other one I’ve seen doing the rounds. Hey Steve, I was looking at your LinkedIn. My LinkedIn and loved how talked [00:27:00] about marketing minds, client stories into remark worthy content while keeping strategy front and center for South Australia and the Northern Territory.
Wow, that’s a really bad ai.
David Olney: That’s I summarized. Start to an email. I’ve heard your Oscar
Steve Davis: this
David Olney: month.
Steve Davis: Oscar your Oscar Wild vibe combined with workshops, keynotes, podcasts, plus being ahead. Chef raising two daughters makes attracting customers feel both inevitable and refreshingly human. They have gone way too far into my personal life.
And doing a drive by.
David Olney: Welcome to the creepy new world of AI generated email.
Steve Davis: If I could show you how I could get you 10 to 20 clients every month on autopilot while you sit back, relax, and simply collect cash by incorporating a low ticket funnel that automatically ascends prospects into high ticket clients in just [00:28:00] 14 days.
Would that be worth a chat over coffee? That is so cynical about humans.
Speaker 4: Mm.
Steve Davis: And just trying to go for the greed vein, but how stupid. What? Ugh. And then here’s the line. I will happily send you a $10 Starbucks gift card so we can both have a coffee together on the call. Ha ha ha. Talk soon. Really actually is insulting at that level.
They want to engage my time. They’re gonna take at least. Half an hour, even though they say 10 or 20 minutes. And they want to pay $10 in a gift card.
David Olney: Mm.
Steve Davis: Which has to be spent at Starbucks, which doesn’t. Do they even exist in Adelaide?
David Olney: Don’t
Steve Davis: think so. I’m not sure. Um, I think they did at one point.
David Olney: Mm.
Steve Davis: So that, secondly, we know who was the author who drew this out.
He did. He’s a behavioral economist and he pointed out that. There’s a certain connection we have with people, um, on [00:29:00] values, and the moment you put a monetary figure on it, it snaps and we think things differently. So they’re looking for goodwill, having a chat the moment they then quantify it by saying, here’s a $10 Starbucks voucher, which probably gets you half one of those fancy copies.
David Olney: Either offer the voucher or don’t try and build up the simpatico. But yeah, combining the two.
Steve Davis: I don’t even like the voucher idea.
David Olney: I don’t like either, but do one or the other.
Steve Davis: Yeah. Uh, so what is happening to spam David? This is a problem that’s infecting the world. Uh, I guess the key thing is to remind, as much as I’ve wanted to reply to these people, I haven’t because all you do is a let them know.
That there’s a live person here and then B, they’re not gonna read it anyway. The worst you’re gonna do is have more of it come.
David Olney: I think the irony at the moment is it’s got so cheap to send out [00:30:00] multitudes of email via, you know, AI processing that well. Soon we’ll be at the point of having AI reading all our email and getting rid of the trash.
And summarizing things to go well, here are the things you might find entertaining. But I’ve put them in the spam folder for the moment. Like the irony is there’s just gonna be this world of flying ones and zeros in the digital space of their AI making crap that our AI decide is crap.
Steve Davis: And then trying to get better to trick the AI guard dogs.
David Olney: Yeah.
Steve Davis: And they’ll get through a few times and then that AI will have to learn that.
David Olney: Yep,
Steve Davis: that’s done. And so. World resources will be depleted.
David Olney: So it’s an arms race of idiocy.
Steve Davis: Now, there is a title for this episode. Apart from just wanting to share with other people who might care. Uh, it’s just don’t bother, do not bother responding.
Would you concur with that? It’s just a fool’s errand.
David Olney: Absolutely. It’s fun for us to talk about it in the podcast because it’s okay to be angry about it. [00:31:00] But just laugh at us getting angry at it, and then move on.
Steve Davis: Do you want that coffee now?
David Olney: I think I’d rather have a mineral water. That way I can drown the ai.
Caitlin Davis: Our four Ps. Number four purse per cassity. Let’s examine a campaign from the past and ask would it work today? As Oscar Wild believed, our one duty to history is to rewrite it, so let’s see what we can learn.
Steve Davis: David, if you had sort of. Red, slightly wavy hair just down to your neck. Uh, mustache. Would you ride horses dressed in leather around the snowy river?
David Olney: I suppose if someone paid me enough money.
Steve Davis: And would you walk into the bar and what would you order? [00:32:00]
David Olney: Hmm. This is a one of those trick questions. ’cause do I have to go near the horse again?
If I wanna go near, I have to go near the horse again, then I wanna be alcohol free. ’cause horses are crazy.
Steve Davis: All true. And what I’m evoking here is one of the early ads for Clayton’s back in the day. ’cause in post cassity, we often look at campaigns from the past and see how they stand up in the latter day.
Let’s have a listen to Jack Thompson. Uh, it starts with him on a film set and then moves into the bar after a day’s shooting on those horses.
TVC: Cut. Nice
one, Jack.
Good bit of riding.
What do you have?
I have a Clayton’s and Dry. Thanks. Plenty of ice.
A drink you have
when I’m not having a drink. Reckon you can handle the river crossing. I’ll be ready.
Clayton’s annoyed Jack.
Oh, better have a double scotch too
for the horse. [00:33:00] Clayton’s, the drink you have when you’re not having a drink,
Steve Davis: it is a little cheesy. But there is something I like about that line. It’s the drink you have when you’re not having a drink. There’s something to like about that. There’s also some negativity with it, but the drink I have when I’m not having a drink. To me has some validity because it shows agency, it shows you’ve got control of your life.
You’re not a victim, you’re not not addicted. You’ve decided, I’m opting out of alcohol for this next drink.
David Olney: Mm.
Steve Davis: It’s the drink I have when I’m not having one. But of course, as you pointed out before, Clayton’s then became the, the catch word in the eighties, I guess when this came about for the fake, the empty, the unreal.
David Olney: But then I, it was for the. The, it’s similar but not the same. You know, the Claytons was like the light version, and as much as [00:34:00] people said it, um, the fact that it stuck seems powerful to me that it could have just been totally ignored. And yet the whole thing of the gag in the ad of, and I’ll take a double scotch for the horse, um, I think for an era where Australia.
You know, again, wasn’t old enough then to be drinking yet, but the well wasn’t old enough to be drinking legally. That’s a better way to put it. Um, the amount of alcohol being consumed in Australia was ridiculous.
Steve Davis: Yes.
David Olney: And the fact the ad worked as well as it did, and in some ways it worked really well in capturing.
So the occasion is you go into the bar with your friends, but you’ve still got something to do there. That’s a legitimate thing you do in the bar. ’cause Clayton’s is the drink you have when you don’t have a drink. There’s a nice twist in an era where being the non drinker would’ve been quite strange of making sure that you’ve got a drink in your hand that looked like the barman did three steps and it came out with ice [00:35:00] and other stuff.
You’re not gonna really look anyone any different to anyone around you, and you’re still part of the occasion. I think it was really good advertising for its era. And I think it probably does still stand up as not being a bad way to pitch it to a generation who are used to drinking a lot of alcohol.
Now, younger Australians who simply drink less, they just drink non-alcoholic things without blinking because that’s more normal in their age group. But for our age group where, you know, alcohol consumption was so normal, I think the Clayton’s thing probably had a a significant place. And the ad still probably works
Steve Davis: well.
I’m just looking into a little bit of, um, research here. It was the seventies and eighties when this happened in Australia and New Zealand. It was considered a successful, although niche product. Uh, and that line of course has stuck with us. Um, it also came at a time when breath testing and row safety campaigns were really shifting at attitudes [00:36:00] to alcohol.
Not much, but a little bit. Mm-hmm.
David Olney: Beginning.
Steve Davis: Yes. And. It was a brand that was kicked around by different companies, uh, beam Orlando Wines, Cadbury Shrimps. They all had a bit. I tried some about three years ago.
David Olney: Oh, wow. It’s still available.
Steve Davis: Well, here’s the rub. I thought it was Clayton’s. I tasted it and it tasted like, um.
Lime. Do you know that adult lime cordial that’s made here in South Australia? Mm-hmm. Um, brand? I’m having a mental blank for
David Olney: big foods.
Steve Davis: Big foods. Mm. Um, it was almost like a, a darker, heavier version of that. And I thought, oh gee, I would never have gone for this if, if I was over drinking or drinking age and back then.
But apparently today, the Clayton’s Cola tonic brands that exist in Barbados and is sold internationally, and I’m wondering whether that’s what I got at Dan Murphy’s when I had this sudden
David Olney: Probably,
Steve Davis: [00:37:00] yeah. Need because. I can’t imagine what I tasted as being something you’d have over rocks with a little bit of schwepps.
David Olney: Yeah. You kind of imagine it’s some sort of bitters product and having tried a couple of the sort of non-alcoholic whiskey substitutes.
Steve Davis: Mm.
David Olney: Now they are really quite strange. Yeah. Like I, some things don’t have a substitute.
Steve Davis: Yeah, correct.
David Olney: Have a unique flavor.
Steve Davis: Um, and so I thought we’d to look at this, so our jury is provided the product was good and, and I don’t think either of us ever tried the real deal.
So it’s hard to say, uh, there would be a place for it. Although I’ve also tried some of the fake, there you go. Clayton’s whiskeys and they are completely. Nothing near it. There’s something with the heat that comes. Yeah. Uh, there’s something the barley bring, you know, there’s all that sort of stuff. Let’s fast forward.
’cause we often say, would this work today? And we’re saying, well, maybe it would if the product was good. Um, ’cause it’s a good, good catch line. Mm-hmm. That brings [00:38:00] us to something I discovered, uh, through social media ads recently called Hopper, HOPR, which is Hops Sparkling Hops Water. It’s interesting it came out, uh, from the owner’s experience of COVID.
Let’s have listened to this. I think it’s about one and a half minute. Um, video they’ve got
HOPR: back in 2020. How Australia’s vaccine rollout. Stumbled COVID, let me down. A deep black hole with alcohol in battle. I was lost. I was struggling with my mental health. Sleepy put, I was fucked up. I’ve had family and friends pass away from alcohol related issues and I didn’t want to go down a path, so I had an idea.
To create a business that could truly change lives, including mine. That’s how HOPR was born. What I didn’t expect, the late nights, the stress,
I’m sorry, but things happen. We can send you another truck tomorrow. You said that you were gonna
send Fact that it’s not happening just [00:39:00] sucks.
The countless setbacks I’ve cried and burn myself out.
But every moment has been worth it because I’m not trying to build just a brand. I’m building a movement HOPR’s about the stories the people we’re sharing. The raw unglamorous truth of this journey to help 1 million Aussies build a healthier, happier future. Welcome to the journey where you’ll see every step, every story, every person that will be helping along the way.
This is HOPR, and this is what it takes to build’s biggest non-alcoholic brand.
Steve Davis: So his journey was to find something to replace some of the alcohol that he was sort of guzzling, I think, the way that he would describe that. Mm. Anyway, I’ve always had a, a light, um, mindset when it comes to the ads on social media. ’cause it’s very rare that I’ve ever responded to any of them. But this one I did.
Because [00:40:00] just recently as I’m, you know, going to the gym three days a week, being mindful of what I eat and just wanting to give the body the best chance to thrive, uh, I popped this ad for HOPRnon-alcoholic, and I looked at the reviews and uh, or the, the comments people were making and I thought, you know what?
I’m gonna try some. And I’m glad I did because. It is an amazing product, David.
David Olney: Yeah, it’s really yummy. You bought me and Karen over two cans and we then ordered a carton as well.
Steve Davis: Mm. Uh, because it’s got a bit of taste to it. Uh, a bit like, bit like beer, but not really. Depends which flavor you’ve got and it’s satisfying.
They’ve got a little bit of green tea extract in it and adaptogens, uh, and basically it gives you a. Not, I don’t physically feel like I’ve got a, a calmer state. I think this just happens by osmosis. But it it, the thing that I reached for that lovely glass of red or a shot of whiskey, at the end of the day, I now [00:41:00] reach for this.
David Olney: Mm-hmm.
Steve Davis: And it’s just switched over.
David Olney: Mm-hmm.
Steve Davis: And I, the reason I wanted to mention this in the per, per cassity is there’s just something about the way they’re talking about it. That connected with me. And I think there’s a mindset when you’re doing ads in social media. ’cause Google ads are different.
Google ads pop up when someone’s searching for something, there’s intent.
David Olney: Mm.
Steve Davis: Your social media ads tend to pop up, um, when someone’s just browsing anything. I mean, obviously these people have retargeting. You go to their website and then their ads will follow you everywhere. But there needs to be a degree of patience of making sure you’ve targeted the right people.
Who are likely to be close to being interested so that you are there.
David Olney: Mm.
Steve Davis: Will you agree?
David Olney: Yeah. It, it’s like when you go fishing for trout and you put the lure on and you have to make lure bounce on the water to look like a bug bouncing on the water. You’ve, you’ve gotta have the right thing in the water and, and wait for a fish to come along that’s [00:42:00] interested.
So it’s a, it’s a patient form of advertising. And I think the other thing that’s really interesting is. We, we had kind of a cool line with Clayton’s, the drink you have when you’re not having a drink.
Mm.
Now we just talk about, I want my life to be different than it is. You can use a personal story about wanting to change your own life and wanting to help other people change their life, their relationship with alcohol.
Like that ability to be more honest about why we do things and that we want to help other people do it too, and that that is. That’s an okay way to run an ad. It’s perhaps even going in the long run to be far more persuasive.
Steve Davis: And I feel like the, the best situation would be the best of both worlds where you do have some sort of, um.
Easy to remember tagline. So it hooks.
David Olney: Yeah.
Steve Davis: But it’s based on, I, I like the fact that he wants this to be a movement. Yeah. And I think that’s
David Olney: like, I’d love it if we could give him a better hook to go with the great story. ’cause [00:43:00] then he’d have both sides covered.
Steve Davis: Yeah.
David Olney: And that would be really powerful to have both.
Steve Davis: Alright, so there you go. Per, per Cassidy, looking at the Clayton’s approach, and I imagine that was bit. Schick and, you know, classic hardcore advertising, but it was trying to break through really entrenched views and not be la and, and by respect. Mm. Try and earn respect. There’s that word again. Mm. Uh, so it’s not laughed off the bar.
Uh, whereas now many of us are like, yeah, do whatever you like, mate. If you want to have some, have some. If you don’t. Don’t. It doesn’t matter. I feel like in relationships to alcohol, there’s a broader church in some parts of society where it’s more kosher.
David Olney: Yeah. I almost wonder too, if the way Jack Thompson performed the ad so calmly, incredibly, like Jack Thompson could have played that ad, you know, he could have hammed it up or been weird, but he delivers the whole ad [00:44:00] really well, and it almost makes it seem like Jack Thompson would do this.
Steve Davis: Yeah,
David Olney: and the power of the fact they picked an actor who didn’t just make the ad but made the ad seem credible. That’s actually really good acting.
Steve Davis: Yeah, a really good Thompson’s
David Olney: performance.
Steve Davis: He’s the actor you have when you don’t really want an actor.
Caitlin Davis: Thanks for listening to talking about marketing. If you found this helpful, please share it with someone who might benefit. And if you’re so inclined, leave a rating in your podcast app. Both help more than you think. Steve and David welcome your thoughts, which you can send to [email protected].
That’s. Podcast at, talked about marketing.com. Want to continue the conversation beyond the podcast? You can book 20 minutes with [00:45:00] [email protected]. No cost, no obligation, and we’ll leave the last word to Oscar Wilde. There’s only one thing worse than being talked about. And that’s not being talked about.