In this episode, we explore Dostoevsky’s reflections on personal integrity and the power of storytelling, dissect Woody Allen’s philosophy of tuning out critics, highlight the pitfalls of bland marketing clichés, and discuss the audacity and enduring relevance of Australia’s lamb adverts that celebrate unity amidst diversity.
Welcome to another thought-provoking episode where we dive deep into the realms of literature, personal insight, and the art of effective marketing.
In the Person segment, we continue our journey through Dostoevsky’s timeless quotes, applying his reflections on self-awareness and resilience to both personal and professional contexts.
Next, in the Principles segment, we explore Woody Allen’s unique approach to creativity, examining how his philosophy of ignoring critics can be applied to business and creative projects alike.
Moving into the Problem segment, we take aim at overused marketing clichés and emphasise the importance of specificity, particularly for tourism copy that truly resonates with an audience.
Finally, in Perspicacity, we revisit one of Australia’s most daring and celebrated lamb adverts, considering its humour, cultural nuances, and whether its message of unity would hold up in today’s climate.
Get ready to take notes!
Talking About Marketing podcast episode notes with timecodes
01:30 Person This segment focusses on you, the person, because we believe business is personal.
Embracing Dostoevsky's Wisdom for Life and Business
In this Person segment, Steve and David continue their journey through the profound quotes of Fyodor Dostoevsky, extracting insights that apply as much to the world of business as to our personal lives. They begin by discussing Dostoevsky's observation that "Man only likes to count his troubles. He doesn't calculate his happiness," and reflect on the human tendency to focus on negative experiences. Drawing on research about negativity bias, they discuss the power of gratitude practices, even as small as a three-point journal, to shift our perspective and enrich our lives.
The conversation deepens as they explore Dostoevsky’s thoughts on self-reflection, noting the importance of being able to admit one’s own mistakes and grow from them. David emphasises that true intelligence goes beyond knowledge, involving empathy, courage, and the willingness to embrace vulnerability. Steve and David share their personal practices and challenges around self-awareness, finding meaning in even the simplest interactions and daily reflections, which can offer clarity and growth.
Finally, they reflect on the power of creative work as a “medicine” for the soul, echoing Dostoevsky’s advice to find refuge in art. Whether it’s as simple as picking up a guitar or crafting a new character, creative pursuits offer a lifeline to recharge, inspire, and build resilience. Steve and David conclude with a reminder that stories, even small daily ones, are invaluable — not only for personal growth but for connecting with others. Through Dostoevsky’s words, this segment invites listeners to embrace the deeper truths within everyday experiences and apply these timeless principles in their own lives.
17:45 Principles This segment focusses principles you can apply in your business today.
Pursuing Your Vision: Lessons in Courage and Creativity from Woody Allen and Tim Burton
In this Principles segment, Steve and David explore the importance of following one’s creative vision, undeterred by the noise of criticism, through the lens of Woody Allen’s approach to filmmaking. Inspired by Allen’s autobiography, Apropos of Nothing, they discuss the discipline of blocking out external opinions and staying true to one's unique ideas, even when others may not fully understand or appreciate them. Allen’s career, marked by a relentless pursuit of his creative ideas regardless of critical acclaim, is seen as an example of how to cultivate resilience and artistic control in the face of outside pressures.
They also touch on the advice Allen received early in his career: to listen to trusted voices but to avoid letting critics and industry gatekeepers sway his vision. Steve and David discuss how this principle applies to business, particularly in making bold decisions and pursuing projects that may not immediately resonate with others. The challenge, they suggest, is in discerning when to listen to trusted feedback and when to stay the course with a personal vision, even if that path is misunderstood by others.
Bringing in another perspective, David recounts a recent BBC interview with director Tim Burton, who similarly prioritises completing his vision over appeasing external opinions. For entrepreneurs, artists, and anyone with a strong creative drive, Steve and David conclude that pursuing these "earworm" ideas is essential. When a concept or vision keeps resurfacing, it’s often a signal that it deserves attention — and that following through on it may be more fulfilling than compromising for approval.
27:30 Problems This segment answers questions we've received from clients or listeners.
Avoiding the Trap of Generic Messaging: Making Your Brand Stand Out with Specificity
In this Problem segment, Steve and David tackle the issue of overly generic marketing messages that fail to connect with audiences. Steve recounts a frustrating experience with a tourism brochure for Blackburn, Melbourne, which used bland phrases like “there’s something for everyone” instead of highlighting unique attractions. Such vague language, they argue, is not only unhelpful but also uninspiring. They stress that specificity in marketing — like mentioning unique local features or specialised events — can transform a message from forgettable to compelling.
David points out the importance of details, especially for audiences who rely on concrete information, such as those with accessibility needs. Broad, sweeping statements leave out crucial specifics, making it challenging for people to form a genuine interest or connection. As an example, Steve shares a humorous quiz from his recent 5AA segment, demonstrating how multiple tourism regions use the same repetitive language, rendering their offerings indistinguishable from one another. He emphasises that well-defined features, like a notable BMX park or a gallery with a unique art focus, would make a region more memorable.
The segment wraps up with a look at a recent ad campaign for Oslo, where the city embraces a self-deprecating tone, poking fun at its own accessibility and charm. This clever approach, they argue, captures attention by defying the typical tourist ad style, proving the power of authenticity and uniqueness in marketing. The key takeaway: instead of blandly claiming “something for everyone,” businesses should focus on what makes them distinct, building messages that truly resonate and engage.
35:45 Perspicacity This segment is designed to sharpen our thinking by reflecting on a case study from the past.
Lamb Adverts and the Power of Bringing People Together in Divisive Times
In this Perspicacity segment, Steve and David delve into one of Australia’s iconic lamb adverts, a humorous piece depicting religious deities gathered around a table for a lamb feast. The ad, which aired about a decade ago, cleverly walks a tightrope of humour and inclusivity by poking gentle fun at each deity while celebrating a universal moment of sharing food. With witty references like Jesus turning water back into water and Moses parting peas, the ad managed to navigate religious sensitivity and connect with the broad Australian audience, prompting both laughter and reflection.
David raises the potential risk of people focusing more on the cleverness of the ad than the product itself, a common pitfall for highly creative campaigns. However, Steve argues that the ad remains grounded enough by maintaining subtle visual reminders of food and fellowship. This anchoring effect keeps the core message — “lamb is the meat that brings us all together” — clear amidst the humour. They agree that the ad’s underlying theme of connection through shared experiences helps it resonate deeply.
The conversation turns thoughtful as they consider the feasibility of running a similar ad today, in a time marked by heightened global tensions and polarisation. While Steve expresses concern that advertisers might shy away from taking such risks, David believes the ad’s message is more relevant than ever, serving as a reminder of our common ground. Together, they conclude that embracing shared humanity, even through humour, might be a refreshing antidote in times of division.
Transcript This transcript was generated using Descript.
A Machine-Generated Transcript - Beware Errors
TAMP S05E07
[00:00:00] Caitlin Davis: Talking About Marketing is a podcast for business owners and leaders, produced by my dad, Steve Davis, and his colleague at Talked About Marketing, David Olney, in which they explore marketing through the lens of their own four P's, person, principles, problems, and perspicacity. Yes, you heard that correctly.
[00:00:27] Apart from their love of words, they really love helping people. So they hope this podcast will become a trusted companion on your journey in business.
[00:00:40] Steve Davis: David, apropos of nothing, I think jellybeans should come with a warning label for their overwhelming cuteness. I
[00:00:50] David Olney: was just sitting here thinking that apropos of nothing, David Sylvian is cool.
[00:00:55] Steve Davis: Well, apropos of nothing, I've decided that llamas would make excellent life coaches.
[00:01:00] David Olney: They would. They're fluffy, they don't make loud noises, and they sit really, really still so the pumas don't find them.
[00:01:09] Steve Davis: See? You just grounded that in some rationale, whereas for me it was apropos of nothing. Yeah, but my reason is always unreasonable.
[00:01:16] David Olney: It's okay.
[00:01:24] Caitlin Davis: The aim of life is self development. To realise one's nature perfectly. That is what each of us is here for. Oscar Wilde.
[00:01:38] Steve Davis: In the person segment this episode, we're continuing something we started last. episode, and we're walking through 16 powerful sentences by Fyodor Dostoevsky, one of the great Russian writers, and we have eight left. Let's see how they apply to both us as people and also to our business world. Here's number one for this episode.
[00:02:06] Man only likes to count his troubles. He doesn't calculate his happiness.
[00:02:11] David Olney: It's one of those very strong statements that everyone claims to realize is true and then they go on and complain about how bad this morning was. It's like, well, was anyone dead? No. Did the sky fall? No. Your family okay? Yes. Is the business still there?
[00:02:30] Yes. We are so deeply wired towards negativity bias, the research shows that it takes a minimum of three positives to counter a negative.
[00:02:44] Steve Davis: And that's why so many books that we've covered during this course of doing the podcast have all in various ways said, If you want to thrive in this world or even survive, Keep some sort of gratitude journal, where at least you've got a discipline, once a day, to try and capture three things that you're grateful for.
[00:03:05] And I still haven't done it. I must do that. Because it, I think I did it temporarily, when I was going through a particularly tough patch. And it instantly made, life better. It brought more color into the world. How do
[00:03:19] David Olney: I make that stick? I wouldn't worry too much about making music. Like, I can only make myself do it when I'm really stressed.
[00:03:26] And my slight variation is three times in a day I'll write what went well and why.
[00:03:32] Steve Davis: Okay.
[00:03:32] David Olney: And I find what went well, because it can be the simplest thing, if I've had a nice coffee because someone cared to do it properly. And the great thing of, I find, of the what went well and why as a combo, is the why is sometimes something you do, the why is sometimes something other people do, and the why is sometimes just having to acknowledge that the world is chaotic, but it isn't malevolent.
[00:03:55] And that can be an important thing
[00:03:57] Steve Davis: to
[00:03:57] David Olney: remember some days.
[00:03:58] Steve Davis: Number two in the list, the cleverest of all, in my opinion, is the man who calls himself a fool at least once a month. Yeah, there's something good about this, and we don't mean, uh, shit talking yourself, we mean being able to admit, hey, I really did something, I really got that wrong, I grabbed the wrong end of the stick, I found myself just reacting too quickly, I could have breathed better.
[00:04:26] Um, or when you find
[00:04:27] David Olney: new evidence, and go, oh, dumb, dumb, why did you do it that way yesterday? Well, because it didn't have the new data I've got today. So I see this as being sort of two sided. You know, it can be about just acknowledging when something's changed, and it's okay to have not realized the new thing immediately.
[00:04:50] Because sometimes we're too busy to realize new things immediately. We need a little bit of time to see we've got a new alternative.
[00:04:57] Steve Davis: And I think Dostoevsky's right, he's saying the cleverest of all are those people who can do that, because what's implicit in that sentence is that we are being self reflective, self monitoring, and self correcting.
[00:05:11] And that is a hallmark of being smart. Being smart doesn't mean you're right a hundred million percent of the time, it means you can acknowledge when you veered off track and you make some corrections. Number three, the soul is healed by being with children. I think we know what he means. Um
[00:05:31] David Olney: Yeah, the language is particular to a time and place.
[00:05:34] But that thing of being around young people who are still enthusiastic about everything is infectious. And if it's not infectious, you need to have a deep think about how cynical you've become.
[00:05:50] Steve Davis: Yeah, that, that wonder of the, through the eyes of a child, um, I actually, this came back to me, I was driving with my 14 year old, through the week, and we went past, in the lane next to us was a big garbage truck, and across the road was a dump truck, and I said to her, I said, look, look, look.
[00:06:10] There's a dumper over there, and here's a big, um, rubbish truck, and she gave me the side eye that a 14 year old would give you. I said, when you were like, 4, 5, even 6, we would sometimes, um, drive around looking for these, and you and your sister would be pointing at them and squealing with delight.
[00:06:35] David Olney: It's funny you tell that story because I know a physiotherapist in Ireland who we were talking one morning and his little one got so excited because it was rubbish truck day and they have to go out and watch the rubbish truck come down the street and lift all the bins.
[00:06:52] It is the highlight of this four year old's week.
[00:06:56] Steve Davis: And you know the sad thing is, is that it is a hallmark of a civilized society that has that. We should all do that because it's what keeps us from having congregations of humans being swamped by rats. Yep. We, we, there should be wonder
[00:07:17] David Olney: over it. Of going out and clapping that the garbage truck turned up like it's meant to.
[00:07:22] It did, and the guys are still doing the
[00:07:23] Steve Davis: job, or the girls. Yeah. Number four, it takes something more than intelligence to act intelligently. We both nodded when we read this one earlier.
[00:07:33] David Olney: Yeah.
[00:07:34] Steve Davis: Um, and I think the missing thing for me there, in part, was empathy. Yep, and
[00:07:39] David Olney: my first word I went to was courage.
[00:07:42] Because you need the courage to say what needs to be said or ask the question, admit you don't know, be, well I suppose we could change courage to vulnerability. So if we said vulnerability and empathy are the combo, if you can strive to have both, you're not going to go far wrong.
[00:08:00] Steve Davis: You'll be able to act intelligently.
[00:08:03] Because that is not the same as being Bragacious. No. And egotistical. I had someone else through the week on LinkedIn Share the meme that when you're public speaking, if you can, in your mind, want to be a servant that actually helps people, uh, it's a much, much stronger set of principles and much firmer ground you're standing on.
[00:08:26] You're much more likely to succeed than to think you've got to go out there and be the showstopper.
[00:08:32] David Olney: I remember years ago reading a few of the very good books on servant leadership, and I can't remember who wrote the really good one. I can't, his first name is, his surname is Greenleaf, which is an unusual surname, which is probably why I remember it.
[00:08:46] But one of the things, I found really interesting was in the United States, a place that is so about ego, so about the rugged individual, that, you know, any workshop on servant leadership will normally get hundreds of people sign up to do
[00:09:02] Steve Davis: it. It probably tips the hat to a lot of the Christian heritage, because that is very much in that realm.
[00:09:09] Um, and funnily I mention that because we're going to finish off with a dose of religion at the end of this episode. Uh, let's move on to the next one, number five. To go wrong in your own way is better than to go right in someone else's. You were a bit more of an advocate of this one than me.
[00:09:25] David Olney: Yeah. Why?
[00:09:27] Because, You Having read enough, sort of, you know, amazing classical Russian literature and then the French existentialists, they're all in agreement on probably only one thing, two things. And the one that's important here is that, immaterial of whether it turns out well or not, do you know what you did and why?
[00:09:50] If you know what you did and why, and you can live with that, it almost doesn't matter what the end is. Because the end is very often beyond your control. But you have, under your control, the means. What do you think you're doing? Why do you think you're doing it? The journey being more important than the destination.
[00:10:07] Yeah.
[00:10:09] Steve Davis: Uh, well, interestingly, on the next one, I was much more in favour here. I'm not saying you were against it at all, but it really resonated for me. Allow me to give you some advice from the heart. There is a single refuge, a single medicine. Art and creative work. Now, that resonates strongly with me, because I love doing, I'm working on a brand new comedy character at the moment, and it's fascinating me, in my after hours, uh, time, and loving it.
[00:10:37] But you were bringing some historical context to Dostoevsky, having written this.
[00:10:42] David Olney: I was just thinking in terms of, the Russian authors who would say things like that, were people who had done well enough in life. Yeah. To go, well, what am I going to do tomorrow? Nothing can make art. And what you and I agreed on was, actually, art's important for everybody.
[00:10:59] And it's finding the time at the end of the workday, after family time, to pick up your instrument, sit down with a pen, pick up a paintbrush. That fitting it in around everything else is its ultimate power.
[00:11:14] Steve Davis: Yeah, and it's a little bit sad that it's like that, but then again, There's only a very small percentage of humans on the planet who have the choice to even do that.
[00:11:24] David Olney: Yeah.
[00:11:25] Steve Davis: Some poor souls have to work very, very long hours on subsistence income to even keep breathing. So we're not quite at the Dostoevsky bourgeois writer level to have complete choice, but we can be smart about it. And I know for me, it is. You know that saying about, if the plane gets into trouble, whack that oxygen mask on yourself before you help others.
[00:11:52] To me, it is the oxygen mask. Being able to lose myself in a creative pursuit and create something out of nothing. No one's hinging on it. It is just expression for itself and curiosity going out to play.
[00:12:07] David Olney: Yep. I picked my guitar up yesterday afternoon. Next thing I knew, it was three hours later. There you
[00:12:13] Steve Davis: go.
[00:12:13] That's the power of art. Number seven. It's better to be unhappy and know the worst than to be happy in a fool's paradise. Maybe. There's, look, I agree with him in my purest heart, but then I think if we really want to look at the world and think we are a bunch of atoms that have coalesced together on a rock that's floating around in cold, dead, vacuum space.
[00:12:46] We live, we die, not much of the universe is impacted by that, and if you've gone through life blissfully, ignorantly happy, maybe that's okay.
[00:12:58] David Olney: Yeah, I think the only problem I have was, if that bubble bursts, how prepared are you to understand what happened and what you need to do now? So I guess I've got that sort of farm boy thing of, the whole thing about a farm is something can always go wrong.
[00:13:14] Steve Davis: Yes.
[00:13:14] David Olney: And you need to be aware, not because you want it to go wrong, but when it goes wrong, it will normally cascade in its
[00:13:21] Steve Davis: wrongness. Yeah, and I was twisting around in circles to try and meet him at this point. Um, to argue that maybe being happy in a fool's paradise is okay, because it doesn't sit well with me.
[00:13:32] I can kind of see it, but at the same time. What about your interactions with others? I was telling you with a client this morning and We're both running our own businesses We both work a lot And we both independently of each other have chosen to engage more with humans this year than ever before Because we see its importance and we see how easily it slips through the
[00:14:00] David Olney: cracks.
[00:14:01] And the minute you pick people, you can't be in a fool's paradise anymore because every person's got their own take on what's going on around them and what they need to feel okay.
[00:14:12] Steve Davis: The final Dostoevsky quote for this little journey is this. I love this one. But how could you live? And have no story to tell.
[00:14:23] It's good, isn't it? We had to save this for last. Yes, because we have got a story. Some people will argue that, Oh, mine's just an ordinary business. I'm a nobody. I'm just doing this. But I don't care if you're running a little suburban deli buried in a suburb. You have a, you're part of the story of lots of people's lives.
[00:14:44] There is story to be had
[00:14:45] David Olney: there. Yeah, you didn't have to. Start or continue that business. You didn't have to do it in a way where the business is continuing to do okay. You didn't have to hire the people you hired. You didn't have to do thoughtful things. To make sure your customers keep coming in.
[00:15:05] There's stories in all of that, and if you don't tell them, this is one of these FOMO moments, if you don't tell your story, someone else will tell theirs. And being that we are creatures of story, the person who tells a great story attracts a lot of attention. So tell your story.
[00:15:23] Steve Davis: And it's possible though in the busyness of particularly running a business, let alone just life.
[00:15:30] If I could use that same person, a fictitious person I'm thinking of, they may not realize how much power they've got to transform other people's lives. That person who comes in who's five cents short, and they say, you know what, don't worry about it today, could have huge ramifications of positiveness or positivity in that person's life.
[00:15:52] It could take them off back from the ledge, could just give them a kick, you In their step for the day and you don't even think about it, but it's important and even we mentioned Belle Baker I think we've mentioned her last episode She was in a shop just recently doing her work in a cafe And the two owners come over to say hello to her and thank her.
[00:16:13] She was there with her bright pink shirt Which drew their attention and made them happy and now they've all bonded. They're all great friends.
[00:16:22] Ad: Hmm
[00:16:23] Steve Davis: They see, there is, there's a story everywhere.
[00:16:26] David Olney: And just to go back to the deli or the cafe in the suburbs, think of how much has changed since COVID. You know, so many suburbs that had no little stores or cafes left now have a little cafe.
[00:16:42] Because so many people now work from home and they could spend the whole day in silence at their laptop or in meetings with people where they can only see their disembodied head. And that going for a 10 minute walk at lunch, and having someone say hi and remember what coffee you drink, is actually a lovely highlight of a long work day.
[00:17:02] Steve Davis: Well, it's what people used to talk about whenever you tell the stories of those sorts of things.
[00:17:06] David Olney: So yeah, have your story and recognize that you help contribute to other people's stories.
[00:17:12] Steve Davis: And that will round up our journey through some quotes from Dostoevsky. And by following some of these, you'll avoid yourself becoming the idiot.
[00:17:23] One of his novels from 1868, or Descending into Crime and Punishment.
[00:17:34] Caitlin Davis: Are four P's. Number two, Principles. You can never be overdressed or over educated. Oscar Wilde.
[00:17:48] Steve Davis: Just recently, Uh, I was doing some songwriting with Rick Price, who'd be known to many people. He had a number of big hits in the 1990s in particular. Still going strong, great singer, songwriter. I'm writing songs with him on behalf of a new comedy character I'm working on. And just during our conversation, out of nowhere, or apropos of nothing, you could say, he mentioned how he's particularly enjoyed listening to Woody Allen's autobiography, which is read by Woody Allen, and it's called Apropos of nothing, which if you're not familiar with that saying it just means For no real reason not related to anything else.
[00:18:25] Boom. It's um, I was saying we saw the show with some of these like Apropos of nothing if clouds could talk I bet they'd gossip about the Sun's bad hair days Completely disconnected. It's just apropos of nothing. And I think it's a great title, by the way, for an autobiography. A self deprecating title, don't you think?
[00:18:47] David Olney: It's that thing of let the art speak. Ignore the person who made it. I think that's probably what he's getting
[00:18:53] Steve Davis: at. That's interesting because, yes, he does, uh, traverse some of the controversies surrounding his life, which throws a whole new light on it, which was interesting. But the thing that made me want to raise his autobiography here, this man has produced many films.
[00:19:12] Many. He's prolific. And. Just something he said stuck with me and I thought I want to share this in the principles segment. He got advice from someone very early on in his career not to listen to the critics or even the studios and to maintain artistic control of his output. If you've got a vision and a story, pursue it through to the end.
[00:19:40] Which he has. He said he's been very lucky to do that. He hasn't made the kazillions of dollars you'd think, because he's had some hits, he's had many misses, and his budgets have always been humble. He was saying in the book that he's had some very big stars work with him, but it's because they want to, and they work for basically The basic union fee there are there is no largesse in a Woody Allen production But he gets a weird idea And he said, oh, that's interesting Let's turn that into a script and see what happens and see if the world likes it or not I think there was one they mentioned towards the end of the book called a a Rainy day in New York or rain in New York or something of that ilk You And it just so happened it was on one of the streaming services, so I watched it, and he said, It was one of his better movies, he thought, but it just didn't do well at all in America.
[00:20:41] And yet it does, it's done well around the world. And I guess this is where, you know, that saying, a beauty is in the eye of the beholder. We have to be careful whose voices we listen to when it comes to critiquing our work.
[00:20:59] Woody Allen: The truth is, I was not at all affected by the criticism, but I'm lucky that way. For better or worse, I sort of live in a bubble. I gave up reading about myself decades ago and have no interest in other people's appraisal or analysis of my work. This sounds arrogant, but it's not. I do not consider myself superior or aloof, nor do I have a particular high opinion of my own product.
[00:21:27] I was taught by Daddy Simon to rely on my own judgment, and I don't like to waste precious time on what can easily become a distraction. Friends have often encouraged me to To at least treat myself to the enjoyment of once in a while reading some respectable person's high praise. And maybe even in extreme cases, consider responding when attacked.
[00:21:50] But I have no desire to do either. I guess Johnny Carson had the more understandable attitude. Challenger assailant, which he did strongly and decisively that night. Was it really worth it to me to engage some dopey yellow journalist and defend Not the Constitution of the United States, but my moose routine.
[00:22:13] I felt if you believed everything you read in the tabloids, you deserved your life.
[00:22:22] Steve Davis: What's your take, David, on this approach of really closing your ears to, uh, reviewers,
[00:22:30] David Olney: to critics? I think it's incredibly important to recognize that if some idea keeps turning into an earworm, You need to get it into the world in as close a form as you can to how you keep imagining it. And that doesn't mean don't listen to people you trust.
[00:22:48] Because if you trust them, hopefully it's because what they've said to you historically is useful. But they are the voices to listen to, the people you trust, not all the other voices.
[00:22:58] Steve Davis: Yes, because you still want to find a voice that will correct you if you're really losing your way. Mm. But there's also the thing that not everyone can fully see your vision.
[00:23:12] I think it was Henry Ford who was attributed with the saying that if you asked people what they wanted, you'd have a faster horse. You wouldn't have had a car because it's not the role of the consumer to innovate, you know, that's, that was him. Well, he was not necessarily first, but he pretty fundamental in the process of, uh, creating the automobile and mass production thereof.
[00:23:39] So, I think I fall down much more on Woody Allen's side on this one. And even though I'm a theater reviewer and theater critic. I would say the same thing. I don't necessarily expect the people I'm reviewing to read what I say. I, I write it for fellow theatre goers and I try and be earnest and honest.
[00:24:02] And kind. And kind. But kind, not kind to the point to hoodwink them into
[00:24:08] David Olney: buying tickets. No, you try and write it in a way where you point out the problem, not just attack the end point. So, even though you're trying to be very constructive. And it might be a bit painful. It's constructive. They could do something about it if they want, and if they don't want, it's their choice.
[00:24:27] But that, that's a big difference. Yeah, again, someone could come to trust your reviews as one of the things and go, well, I want to talk to that guy because he's so thoughtful. When I want to put my play on, I'll go talk to Steve Davis.
[00:24:41] Steve Davis: In my heart of hearts, I would love to Someone who's putting on a play to have a chat beforehand, because there are some things that are just stand out that are so obvious that could be avoided.
[00:24:56] And by the time the show's on and staged, it's a little bit too late to make drastic changes. But then I'm overstepping, um, but this thing about this love hate relationship with critics and other voices, it's just I was mentioning Woody Allen, but you said Tim Burton has a similar bit of, uh, advice that he follows.
[00:25:20] David Olney: Yeah, I heard, you know, Tim Burton speaking on the BBC this morning. There's about to be a retrospective of a whole pile of materials from his movies. And he was making the point to Charlotte Gallagher from the BBC that, really, he just makes the movie he wants to make. If a studio will let him, great. If they don't, he takes the script to another studio.
[00:25:40] If he wants to work with someone, great. If I don't want to work with him, okay. He'll work out who the next person is who could play that role. He's not hung up on what other people think or the details. He's about, is the vision complete? Is there any gaps I can fill? You know, he's taking responsibility for this is my thing.
[00:26:00] If it does well, great. If it doesn't well, I'll learn lessons. But I'll know it was my thing. And I know I 100%. put my effort into making it unique, making it interesting, making it cohesive. They were the things he really valued.
[00:26:17] Steve Davis: Yeah, better to die knowing than not knowing. So from a business perspective, just wrapping up the principles segment, I guess what we're saying from this is if there's something needling at you that just won't disappear, like we had that episode recently where we talked about My decisions to go back to the gym and it was Alexandra Lopez Who called us to suggest it and said she had that on her mind For months on end it would keep coming up.
[00:26:47] And so she thought she'd take action That's an example of that and I'm glad she did because it actually has borne much fruit for me that episode so If it's needling, we've got to do something about it. If you've got a trusted voice you can hear, bounce things off to protect you from yourself, that's great.
[00:27:07] But sometimes no one else will get it and you've got to have that courage to see it through. Our
[00:27:17] Caitlin Davis: four Ps. Number three, problems. I ask the question for the best reason possible. Simple curiosity. Oscar Wilde.
[00:27:33] Steve Davis: In the problem segment, this episode, the problem is this saying, David. There's something for everyone. Nyehehehehe. I was recently in Melbourne, uh, staying in the suburb of Blackburn, which is, I think Everybody looked at it on a map, south, south east of Melbourne. Nice place, but I thought, what can we do while we're here?
[00:28:01] And I had a look and basically the tourist brochure was the most generic bunch of platitudes. It says something like this, here's a quote from it. Blackburn is a great place to explore and experience a variety of activities. From outdoor activities such as hiking and biking, to indoor activities like museums.
[00:28:21] There's something for everyone. And I remember being struck by how unhelpful that is. It's told me diddly squat, because you could write that sentence about Adelaide, Glenelg, Hawker, just about everywhere, you could write that about. And so I have been renewed on my war path against that sort of The problem of those sweeping statements to go job done, we've finished the webpage, move on, without actually thinking about the reader.
[00:28:56] David Olney: David? I find those kind of things particularly frustrating because being blind, I need detail. Like if I'm going to go somewhere, I need to know how accessible it is. I need to know what's there. I'm pretty flexible in what I might find interesting, but if you're that general, all you're telling me is you're a suburb to be avoided.
[00:29:16] That you've got nothing distinctive. You haven't defined yourself. Or you haven't given me ten interesting things in our suburb. Just list them off. I would prefer that. You've been around a bit,
[00:29:28] Steve Davis: haven't you? If you don't mind me saying so. I tend to go round and round and round in circles when I get myself lost, so yes.
[00:29:34] I shared this with Richard on 5AA recently. It's my quiz on generic tourism copy. So I'm about to read an actual, uh, Sentence from a website promoting one of our regions and you got to choose which one it is David Okay, is it like multiple choice like you give me the region names? I have to pick here the region names York Peninsula Claire Valley or limestone coast.
[00:29:56] Mm hmm. You ready?
[00:29:57] Ad: Mm hmm
[00:29:58] Steve Davis: With many cafes and antique shops sure to captivate every visitor, from the coffee lover to the wine buff, there's something for everyone. Well, you
[00:30:06] David Olney: would figure with the wine buff, it's maybe going to be Claire or Limestone Coast, but they haven't said wineries, which means it could be all three.
[00:30:16] So, it's just random selection, I think. It was York Peninsula.
[00:30:21] Steve Davis: Yeah. It was random selection.
[00:30:23] David Olney: Yeah.
[00:30:23] Steve Davis: Uh, the next one, McLaren Vale, Barossa Valley, or Coonawarra. You ready?
[00:30:27] Ad: Mm hmm.
[00:30:29] Steve Davis: X, I've replaced the name with X. X is one of the world's great wine regions. Also renowned for its food, cultural experiences, and easygoing lifestyle.
[00:30:37] Take your time to soak in the wealth of X experiences on offer. From cycling tours, to slow degustations, through to festivals, cultural events, hands on experiences, and more. If I had to guess
[00:30:50] David Olney: there because of the emphasis on food, and I'm gonna say I was concentrating so much I was listening to, I've forgotten one of the options, but that to me sounds like it should be McLaren Vale.
[00:31:00] Steve Davis: And from memory I think it was Barossa Valley, but it could have been either of them. Yeah. You know, seriously. And the last one, Kangaroo Island, the Riverland, or Eyre Peninsula. There's something for everybody here. Nature and wildlife, food and wine, adventure or relaxation, X has it all. Would you say all three?
[00:31:22] Which it could easily be. I think it's the specific aspect is really important. I would think that if you had, let's say, your state champion BMX team trained at your BMX park, I think highlighting the fact that the state BMX team trained there, We can now join the dots and go, wow, it must be a really good park and instead of saying we've got a BMX park here Well, everyone has but this is different or if you say our Art gallery is home to the annual award in absurdist art Now we've got something, if that floats your boat, you can go, well there, it must be an interesting one, there'll be some really weird stuff there that I'll love.
[00:32:07] David Olney: Or if you're going to talk about, you know, several restaurants off of Dega Stations, overlooking our amazing coastline, from which you can see, You know, humpback whales, like, give us a full picture. Yeah. Link the pieces together.
[00:32:21] Steve Davis: So, that's the problem, is when we just sweep things, well, under the mat really, and something for everyone means nothing for nobody.
[00:32:29] Which is a double negative. It's fun though. I like that one. But let's just finish off with a bit of fun. There's a great ad at the moment. It's won awards for Oslo. We'll have a listen to it now.
[00:32:45] I wouldn't
[00:32:46] Oslo Ad: come here, to be honest. Oslo's just not I mean, is it even a city? You know what I mean? Everything is just so Available. You know? There's no exclusiveness. I grew up here. And, uh, I temporarily live here. Unfortunately. I don't understand why people go swimming in the middle of the city. It's disgusting.
[00:33:19] You ever been to Istanbul? Also feels more like a village, maybe. I mean, you walk around a corner and it's like, oh, there's the prime minister. And you walk around the next corner, it's like, oh, there's the king. I mean, you could just walk from one side of town. In like 30 minutes. Try that in New York or Paris.
[00:33:47] It's an American architect. Culture? I don't know. I don't know. If you don't have to stand in line for at least a couple of hours, is it even worth seeing? Not exactly the Mona Lisa. Sometimes I just walk right in off the streets and get a table. And I'm not even famous. I mean, what does that tell you? I think a city should feel a little hard to get.
[00:34:17] It's like a good relationship, you know? It's not supposed to be easy.
[00:34:33] Steve Davis: So there it is, we have an unenthusiastic local saying, well, I wouldn't come here, but done in a way, obviously, of love and self deprecation, and it just works. It's so Scandinavian, it's great. And what I love about it, and this is the thing to remember, our brain, if our brains see, I was talking to someone who wants to write some corporate copy for a brochure, if it looks and talks and feels like every other corporate brochure, No one's going to read it because the brain goes, Oh, I know what's I know what's going to be there.
[00:35:07] But if it's saying, and in fact, this was a, an IT service company I was talking to, if it said, let the hackers do their worst, let the arsonists burn my business to the ground, the sun will still come up tomorrow because I'm with XYZ IT. Now that would grab your attention. Yeah, you need some proof, but at least you're interested.
[00:35:29] Yes, exactly. So, um, There we are. Let's forget being generically universal and let's get some specificity into our messaging.
[00:35:44] Caitlin Davis: Our four Ps, number four, Perspicacity. The one duty we owe to history is to rewrite it. Oscar Wilde. Finally,
[00:35:55] Steve Davis: in Perspicacity, we're going back to a classic. Lamb. I can't believe we haven't done a lamb TV commercial yet in this segment.
[00:36:07] David Olney: Maybe it's because we just ate too much lamb in our Australian childhoods and we're a little bit, sort of, lamb traumatised.
[00:36:14] Ha, ha, traumatised. Did you have lamb every Sunday lunch for the first ten years? Yeah, pretty much. Yeah, me too. With the bone in, might I add. Ah, thankfully as a little human it got cut off the leg and put on my plate without the bone.
[00:36:26] Steve Davis: Oh, there you go. Well, I just got the bone. My dad had the meat. Um, so anyway, there was a great, uh, ad about, I'd be guessing this is about 10 years ago now, would be my anticipation of, All the different deities from all the religions coming together to have a feast.
[00:36:47] Let's have a listen.
[00:36:52] Oslo Ad: Jesus, where's your dad? He's everywhere. Just joking. He's working.
[00:36:59] Ad: Can you get that? Thanks, Zeus. God, I love this lamb. You're welcome. Wow, that's a relief. It's a nightmare catering for you lot with all your dietary requirements. Oh, no, no, not for me, um, designated driver.
[00:37:16] Oslo Ad: See that? Reverse miracle.
[00:37:18] Ad: I
[00:37:19] Oslo Ad: think that's yours,
[00:37:20] Ad: Aphrodite.
[00:37:25] Oslo Ad: How do I get that thing myself?
[00:37:29] Woody Allen: Moses, can you pass those down?
[00:37:34] David Olney: So. Should we address the elephant in the room?
[00:37:37] Oslo Ad: Not funny, two and a half thousand years ago. It's not funny now. What is this music?
[00:37:44] Ad: It's his playlist.
[00:37:45] Oslo Ad: Oy, Christian rock. This one's
[00:37:48] Woody Allen: about me.
[00:37:48] They're all about you. Hide. Don't understand why people take photographs of food.
[00:37:54] Ad: You know she probably has more followers than anyone at this table.
[00:37:57] Woody Allen: Really? You're famous. Have you ever thought about Scientology? If you could just open your mind. Ron, Ron, uh, let's not get into religion at the table. I gave up dinner with Tom Cruise for this.
[00:38:10] Yeah, sure. I'll
[00:38:12] Ad: see you next time.
[00:38:14] Woody Allen: Who's
[00:38:14] Oslo Ad: that?
[00:38:15] Ad: Muhammad.
[00:38:16] Oslo Ad: Can't make an appearance.
[00:38:17] Ad: Daycare pickup.
[00:38:18] Oslo Ad: That
[00:38:18] Woody Allen: is a shame.
[00:38:19] Ad: Oh, I got a
[00:38:19] Woody Allen: match! What does egg do? Me.
[00:38:23] Ad: What? What?
[00:38:28] Oslo Ad: I don't mean to be rude, but what religion are you?
[00:38:33] Ad: Oh, I'm no religion. Which is the fastest growing religion in Australia based on recently published census data.
[00:38:39] Oslo Ad: We really need a better marketing team. I knew we shouldn't have spent all that money on
[00:38:43] David Olney: pamphlets.
[00:38:45] Steve Davis: What
[00:38:45] Oslo Ad: should we toast
[00:38:46] Steve Davis: to? To science.
[00:38:50] Ad: What about just lamb? The meat we can all eat.
[00:38:55] Oslo Ad: The lamb! We really should get together more often. It would make the galaxy a better place.
[00:39:06] Steve Davis: I remember that ad causing quite a bit of chatter at the time. Because someone dared to go into the realm of religion, which is always a dangerous topic to steer into. But overall, I think that the ad was pretty well accepted in Australian society. And it's very cleverly written. There are so many little jokes there, like Jesus having turned the carafe of water into wine.
[00:39:30] And going to pour it for Aphrodite, who says, no, I'm the designated driver. Uh, and so he turns it back into water and says, hey, look at that, a reverse miracle. Um, you get a glimpse of someone with a bowl of peas, and they split in half. And then they mention Moses, because he, you know, according to the, the Old Testament of the Bible, he parted the Red Sea, and there he is doing with the peas.
[00:39:54] Yeah, there's so many, and um, L. Ron Hubbard, From Scientology, going, I gave up lunch with Tom Cruise for this, which works on two levels, it's just so rich. Um, overall,
[00:40:08] David Olney: as an ad, what do you think? I think it's so clever there's a risk of forgetting what the product is. But I don't mind that because it's so clever.
[00:40:17] Steve Davis: That is often a risk with clever ads. My instinct is they kept it. Grounded well enough with Their core message because yes, that can often be the runaway train, but I think Having the young woman are always in shot Who is the host? And she leads the conversation about what they're reading, she brings it back,
[00:40:45] David Olney: uh, and then And the visuals might be helping for you in a way.
[00:40:48] Again, I'm not seeing what's on their plate, but maybe that's re grounding at every moment. Is everyone basically eating a different lamb dish in the ad?
[00:40:57] Steve Davis: There's actually not that much focus close on the plates.
[00:41:01] David Olney: Okay.
[00:41:02] Steve Davis: Interestingly
[00:41:03] David Olney: enough. So other than watching the peas separate in the main, they're eating, you can tell that from the fact they're around the big table and you've got all the noises of people at a table, but it's
[00:41:11] Steve Davis: not specific.
[00:41:12] They're talking more so than eating. So there's no real mastication happening. They're just talking. So that's what grounds it, is they've come together around the table. So that reminds us always that they're eating something. We know it's lamb. Here's the thing that's in the back of my mind. At the time of recording, Israel's a year into its, uh, various, uh, war with, uh, Palestinians and in Lebanon, which possibly means tolerance for having some elastic joking across religious boundaries might be more fraught than usual.
[00:41:59] Would this temper your thinking about running an ad like this in 2024, David, or do you think it's timeless enough to survive?
[00:42:10] David Olney: I think we need it more than ever to remind us that there's always things we have in common, but I think it might be a hard pitch. You know, to get people to take the risk. Like, I would certainly make the strong argument that it's worth running.
[00:42:27] Because I think it's, it's clever, it's fun, it's respectful of everyone. The cheeky bits are really only aimed at L. Ron Hubbard. Everyone else comes out of it looking pretty good. Even the ancient Greek gods come out of it looking pretty good. I think it's worth the risk. For the fact that it's about bringing people together.
[00:42:45] And trying to show that, even in a very simple way, there's things we have in common.
[00:42:49] Steve Davis: And we do hear a lot, and we hear it at the moment during the Republican Democrat presidential election in America, which is so polarised in media coverage. There's often a lot of commentary about having this huge mass of people in the middle who are actually pretty balanced about things.
[00:43:09] So, my instinct is not dissimilar to yours, that it would be good for the world to have this. But I think it might get vetoed by people being paranoid that it could become controversial.
[00:43:28] David Olney: Yeah, let's not even let it happen and find out. Let's just play it so safe that we make the world smaller. But if it is smaller, you can afford to buy a cheaper cut of lamb.
[00:43:39] That's true, but then Dostoevsky will be upset that we made the world smaller and he didn't have enough layer. Oh, the idiot.
[00:43:46] Caitlin Davis: Thank you for listening to Talking About Marketing. If you enjoyed it, please leave a rating or a review in your favourite podcast app. And if you found it helpful, please share it with others.
[00:43:57] Stephen David always welcome your comments and questions. So send them to podcast at talkaboutmarketing. com And finally, the last word to Oscar Wilde. There's only one thing worse than being talked about. And that's not being talked about.