S04E08 – Let’s Make A Date To Talk

Talking About Marketing Podcast by Steve Davis and David Olney

Explore Economic Challenges, TED Talk Crafting, AI in Marketing, and Human Connections. Essential Insights for Small Business Success. Let's Make A Time To Listen.

In this episode of Talking About Marketing, Steve Davis and David Olney explore a range of topics that highlight the challenges and opportunities faced by small business owners in today's dynamic environment.

The Person segment delves into the current economic instability and its impact on small businesses. Drawing on Edward Chancellor’s book, The Price of Time, they discuss how economic policies designed to create stability often result in prolonged difficulties, and they encourage business owners to persevere despite these challenges.

In the Principles segment, the duo shares insights from Chris Anderson’s book, TED Talks: The Official TED Guide to Public Speaking. They explore the art of crafting impactful presentations, focusing on the importance of a strong core idea, engaging openings and closings, and the value of narrative structure and emotional engagement.

The Problems segment features an amusing yet instructive example of poorly executed automated marketing outreach. Steve and David dissect an email that highlights the importance of genuine engagement and personalised communication, offering valuable lessons for improving marketing practices.

Finally, in the Perspicacity segment, they examine the evolution of dating advertisements and the increasing role of AI in human connections. They discuss the potential downsides of outsourcing personal interactions to AI and emphasise the enduring value of genuine human engagement.

Join Steve and David as they blend practical advice with philosophical reflections, providing tools and perspectives to enhance both your personal and professional life.

Get ready to take notes!

Talking About Marketing podcast episode notes with timecodes

01:20  Person  This segment focusses on you, the person, because we believe business is personal.

Navigating Economic Challenges: The Silver Lining for Small Businesses

In the Person segment, Steve Davis and David Olney address the current economic instability affecting households and businesses, with fluctuating interest rates and rising costs creating a challenging environment. Drawing on Edward Chancellor’s book, The Price of Time, David argues that there is a silver lining to these economic storm clouds, albeit a bitter pill to swallow.

Chancellor’s research reveals that efforts to maintain economic stability have paradoxically led to more significant crises. Historically, capitalism thrives on the concept of creative destruction, where failing businesses collapse, allowing more efficient and innovative entities to rise. However, since the early 20th century, policies aimed at stability have led to prolonged economic malaise, preventing necessary market corrections and fostering inefficiency.

David explains how these macroeconomic policies impact small businesses, which often struggle despite their passion and skill. Small business owners frequently express a love for their work and a belief in their ability to provide superior products or services. Yet, they also face constant challenges, teetering on the edge of success and failure. This dichotomy stems from a distorted economic environment that impedes their progress.

Steve reinforces this point with an example from his recent interview on The Adelaide Show podcast with three family-run winemakers - Leadership Drought: A Call To Wine Australia Amid Small And Family Winery Despair. These small wineries face competition from large, mediocre conglomerates that dominate the market with lower prices and inferior products. Consumers, under financial stress, often choose the cheaper options, unaware of the significant difference a few extra dollars can make.

The segment concludes with an acknowledgment that while the economic environment is tough, it’s essential for small business owners to persist. They should not take responsibility for the broader economic issues but continue to innovate and collaborate. The metaphor of Australian flora requiring fire to germinate serves as a reminder that out of destruction can come new growth and opportunities.

09:50  Principles  This segment focusses principles you can apply in your business today.

Crafting Impactful TED Talks: The Art of Distilling Ideas

In the Principles segment, Steve Davis and David Olney delve into the art of crafting impactful TED Talks, inspired by Chris Anderson's book, TED Talks: The Official TED Guide to Public Speaking. The discussion begins with their personal experiences and evolving perceptions of TED Talks. While the sheer volume of content may have diluted their initial excitement, both agree that TED Talks reliably deliver valuable insights and inspiration.

Steve underscores the importance of the book, recommending it for its rigorous approach to crafting a compelling 18-minute presentation. The process of distilling ideas into a concise format can elevate one's public speaking skills, even if they never deliver a formal talk. He emphasises the significance of identifying a core idea or "through line" that threads the entire presentation together. This central concept should be clear and reiterated to ensure continuity, which our brains find satisfying.

David highlights the importance of a strong opening to grab attention, suggesting methods such as surprising statements, anecdotes, intriguing questions, or compelling images. Equally crucial is a powerful closing, which can include a call to action, a personal commitment, or a broader implication of the talk’s message.

The segment further explores the narrative structure of a TED Talk, comparing it to a tree with a strong trunk and branching stories. Engaging emotionally is essential, using humour, personal stories, and relatable experiences to make the speaker human and likable. Simplifying content and focusing on a few key points ensures clarity and impact.

Reflecting and revising the talk through rehearsals and honest feedback is a vital step. Steve shares practical advice on delivering the talk to someone outside the business to gauge its effectiveness. David likens this to explaining complex ideas to a taxi driver, ensuring they remain engaged and interested.

The segment concludes with the idea of hosting workshops or "Talk Camps" to help others develop their TED Talks, combining practical exercises with fun elements to foster learning and creativity.

23:40  Problems  This segment answers questions we've received from clients or listeners.

The Pitfalls of Automated Marketing: A Lesson in Genuine Engagement

In the Problems segment, Steve Davis and David Olney discuss an amusing yet instructive example from their email inbox that highlights the pitfalls of poorly executed automated marketing outreach. David received an email with the subject line, "Great article about ChatGPT, Marketing Team," which immediately raised suspicions about its authenticity and quality.

The email begins with the generic greeting "Hello, Marketing Team," indicating that it was generated by a bot without any human oversight. The message proceeds with a series of generic compliments and an attempt to suggest a collaboration, all of which are laden with insincerity. The email references an article on their website titled "A Marketer's Christmas Message Written with ChatGPT," but the formatting errors and full URL inclusion further reveal its automated nature.

Steve and David dissect the email, pointing out several missed opportunities where a more thoughtful approach could have garnered their attention. The email's suggestion to add a link to a resource on using ChatGPT for project management was irrelevant to the comedic nature of their original article, underscoring the lack of genuine engagement with the content.

The email concludes with an offer to share their post with over 10,000 followers and provide access to a list of high-response sites, but the lack of initial genuine interaction and relevance renders these offers unconvincing. Steve and David critique the superficial flattery and generic approach, highlighting how such tactics fail to build meaningful connections or trust.

The key takeaway from this segment is the importance of genuine engagement and personalised communication in marketing. Automated outreach can be a tool, but it needs to be executed with care and attention to the recipient's context and content. Steve and David encourage listeners to be critical of similar emails and to strive for more authentic and effective marketing practices.

29:10  Perspicacity  This segment is designed to sharpen our thinking by reflecting on a case study from the past.

The Evolution of Dating: AI vs. Human Connection

In the Perspicacity segment, Steve Davis and David Olney delve into the evolution of dating advertisements and the role of artificial intelligence (AI) in modern matchmaking. Steve starts by referencing a candlelit dinner as a metaphor for discussing dating ads and the changes in how people meet and connect over time.

The segment begins with a historical perspective, featuring a commercial from Match.com, one of the first online dating sites. The ad highlights how people, tired of traditional dating methods, sought new ways to meet potential partners online.

Despite the initial excitement, Steve points out the irony that these online activities often replicate the same old social interactions in a different format.

David shares insights on Bumble, a dating app where women initiate conversations, aiming to create healthier dynamics. He introduces Whitney Wolfe Herd, Bumble's founder, who envisions a future where AI acts as a "dating concierge," simplifying the process by pre-selecting potential matches. This concept raises concerns about outsourcing human interaction and losing essential social skills.

David expresses scepticism about relying too heavily on AI for such personal connections. He argues that the human aspects of dating—the challenges, the surprises, the emotional connections—are crucial and irreplaceable. Outsourcing these experiences to AI might result in people being ill-prepared for real-life relationships, as they miss out on the messy but meaningful parts of human interaction.

Steve and David explore the broader implications for small businesses. They suggest that as technology takes over more social interactions, both customers and employees may become less adept at dealing with people. However, they also see an opportunity for businesses that can maintain or reintroduce genuine human interaction, as people will eventually crave authentic connections.

The segment concludes with a humorous nod to a famous scene from When Harry Met Sally, underscoring the unique and irreplaceable nature of real human experiences. Steve and David emphasise the importance of fostering human skills and preparing for a future where these skills will be highly valued and necessary for personal and professional success.

Transcript  This transcript was generated using Descript.

A Machine-Generated Transcript - Beware Errors


[00:00:00] Caitlin Davis: Talking About Marketing is a podcast for business owners and leaders, produced by my dad, Steve Davis, and his colleague at Talked About Marketing, David Olney, in which they explore marketing through the lens of their own four P's, person, principles, problems, and perspicacity. Yes, you heard that correctly.

Apart from their love of words, they really love helping people. So they hope this podcast will become a trusted companion on your journey in business.

[00:00:40] Steve Davis: David, I want to give you two options. Uh oh. Would you rather plan out a presentation with me following the format of a TED Talk Or would you prefer to have a candlelit dinner together?

[00:00:59] David Olney: We could combine the two. Because you'll enjoy the candles, I'll enjoy the dinner, and we'll get work done.

[00:01:05] Steve Davis: Now that took me by surprise.

I'll choose the restaurant, and you drive me home.

[00:01:12] David Olney: This could get really exciting. Remember you're meant to bark three times when I'm meant to hit the brakes.

[00:01:22] Caitlin Davis: Our four P's. Number one, person. The aim of life is self development. To realise one's nature perfectly. That is what each of us is here for. Oscar Wilde.


[00:09:50] Caitlin Davis: Our four Ps. Number two, Principles. You can never be overdressed or over educated. Oscar Wilde.

[00:10:04] Steve Davis: David, when you're home by yourself, and you're You know, no one else is around and you're looking at a few videos. When your reader says to you, there's a TED Talks video, do you get excited?

[00:10:20] David Olney: I used to get really excited, but like so many great things, my excitement has gone down a little bit because of the sheer quantity of good material.

So more often than not, its impact is, oh, it's a TED Talk. It will give me a nice positive spin on something. I think. How do we fix something? How do we make something better? So it's more I look forward to it as like a glass of nice, fresh, cool water to make the day better.

[00:10:46] Steve Davis: Hmm, so you know it's gonna reliably quench the thirst.

It may not necessarily be the signature cocktail that you remember for all time. But they can be. And this is, and they were a lot more of that back in the early days. But I guess it's, is it quantity? Is it churning them through? Yeah. So, you know, the TED Talk itself, uh, has a formula. It's 18 minutes long.

Which means you do need to use one of my favourite sayings I've picked up along the way. Murder your darlings. Because most of us, when we start putting ideas together for a presentation, come up with way too much. And either rush through it, To meet a timeline, or, um, just go on and on and on. Uh, but I don't do that, Dave, do I?


[00:11:37] David Olney: don't tend to do that.

[00:11:38] Steve Davis: Ooh, that's a, that's a weasel word. Tend.

[00:11:41] David Olney: Um, you love words, which means you like to add words because you love them. Those words normally have meaning, but 11 words with similar meaning is not much more meaningful than 3 words with similar meaning.

[00:11:53] Steve Davis: Anyway, uh, TED Talks. They still have a great format, even though, because of the quantity being rushed through, some of it might be diluted these days.

And, David, you, uh, suggested I get the book TED Talks, the official TED guide to public speaking, written by Chris Anderson, who's the head of TED, TED Head.

[00:12:11] David Olney: Um, and, uh, It's, while you've said something that's a bit rude, just to jump in, the significance is that even if they've become a bit ordinary in our lives, what is extraordinary is you can make this many talks that are all watchable, all vaguely interesting, and all generally entertaining, and all where at the end of it you know why the person talked to you and what they need you to do.

Yep. That's

[00:12:34] Steve Davis: powerful. It is, and you said I should get it and, and Bell, one of our lovely clients, Bell, because even if we never deliver a talk to a public forum, the rigor, the process of putting one together with the discipline of the 18 minute hard, Timeline means you up your game, you get things focused, and I think that's absolutely right.

I have read the book from cover to cover, I've distilled it into the notes of what I think is a more accessible process, and I want to share some of those things with you today and get your input as well, David. The first thing, and I think this is the fundamental thing in the whole concept of writing a TED talk, is coming up with the core idea.

That it's all about, which is referred to as the through line. So movies have a through line of what particular journey a character is going on. For us, what is the one core idea that we want to leave with people? And that's not as easy as it seems, David.

[00:13:43] David Olney: No, because very often you think you need to explain 10 things before you can get to that through line.

Where in reality, if you can say the through line right at the beginning of what you're talking about, and then restate it right at the end, then people go, continuity. And our brains love continuity. So give people what they need.

[00:14:03] Steve Davis: Yeah, they love continuity as the other side of the coin of hating something left undone.

They want to rush to close that gap. And so, What you will hear if you are ever working with me or David on putting your TED talk together is the very first job is going to be spending some time thinking through what is this through line all about. Chris mentions right at the beginning of the book a particular TED talk that does this really well.

It's a talk called Why We Laugh back from 2015. Cognitive neuroscientist Sophie Scott talks about some surprising facts about laughter and What laughter! Really is, and in evolutionary terms, how it evolved. Let's have a listen.

[00:14:52] Sophie Scott: For example, I can remember now, something very much like this happening at my father's funeral. I had a relative who was being a bit difficult, my mum was not in a good place, and I can remember finding myself, just before the whole thing started, telling this story about something that happened in a 1970s sitcom.

Um, and, and, and I just, I even at the time thought, I don't know why I'm doing this. And all I realized I was doing, was I was coming up with something from somewhere, you I could use to make her laugh. Together with me. It was a very basic reaction to show that for some reason we can do this, we can laugh together, we're going to get through this, we're going to be okay.

And in fact, all of us are doing this all the time. You do it so often you don't even notice it. Everybody underestimates how often they laugh. And you're doing something when you laugh with people that's actually letting you access a really ancient evolutionary system that mammals have evolved To make and maintain social bonds and clearly to regulate emotions, to make ourselves feel better.

It's not something specific to humans. It's a really ancient behavior, which really helps us regulate how we feel and makes us feel better. In other words, when it comes to laughter, you and me baby, ain't nothing but mammals. Thank you.

[00:16:06] Steve Davis: And I love it. I love the fact that Chris Anderson says, to this day, He will still laugh in a group, whatever, and then he has this flashback of that note that Sophie just shared to go, Ah, that's the evolutionary purpose of that laugh. And he says, that to me, says she got her through line right. Yep. We all remember, hang on, it just worked again.

Dope. How did I learn that? Now some of these, or these notes you'll see in the show notes for this episode, but I'll just whip through them quickly. David, you pull me up if you want to go deeper on any of these. Another factor for putting a TED Talk together that strong is looking at the open. We want to open strongly and close powerfully.

And, to open up, Sometimes it could be a surprising statement, a sort of bold unexpected fact, it could even be an anecdote, people love a story, an intriguing question is a nice way to, um, set something up, or a compelling image, uh, is another way to grab people's attention, uh, David, I'm guessing the last one doesn't really enthuse you all that much.

[00:17:15] David Olney: No, but if the person then describes the significance of the photo. Yes. So the classic example of that I remember was a TED Talk done by a supermodel, where she comes out on stage essentially looking like the high school librarian, with her hair up and the loose jumper and the long skirt and her glasses on, and then starts the story of, well, you think I look like a normal person who gives a TED Talk, and she then describes, you know, why she's chosen those clothes, and it's all about the importance of perception.

And by the end of it, she's in an evening gown, no glasses, her hair's down, and the whole perception of her has changed. But she articulates what she's doing and why. As she literally gets rid of the layer of clothes and her glasses and pulls the hairpins out. So it's not that a visual can't work, but a visual with a good description can be even more powerful.

Yes, because it's an inclusive

[00:18:09] Steve Davis: of everyone, but also getting the thinking. Closing options. Some of the ones he talks about include a camera pullback is when you zoom out to show the broader implication of what your talk is all about. Yeah. A call to action. What is the next step that our listener could do?

Um, a personal commitment. Asking people to take a moment right now to pledge that they're going to be on this mission. Um, stating some visions and values can work. Um, tying back your narrative to that An early key moment, which is what you were talking about before, David. Where, ah, we've gone full loop.

[00:18:50] David Olney: Fantastic. It needs to be clear, like, you can't be the only one that sees the link. Yes. Other people have to recognize it when you're testing your TED Talk.

[00:18:59] Steve Davis: And then he said, one to be used with care is called lyrical inspiration. That's when you conclude with, um, something that's poetic or an emotionally charged statement.

He said they can be really strong, but not everybody's gifted enough to do that. Yeah, don't do rhyming just for the sake of it. The second of the, uh, internal aspects of a TED Talk is, we do need to have narrative structure to the talk. Everything needs to be in, in a place. And he talks about the tree. If you imagine a tree, a strong trunk with branches.

That is the map for your story. So you've got the strong trunk in the ground, and you start going up. And then there's one branch off. Take that to the end, come back. So it's always sewn into the trunk. You know you're going somewhere, and your audience has a vision of the progress you're making, but also how things fit together.

Another part is engage emotionally. He says, he talks about weaving emotional elements throughout your talk. So it can be humour, it can be some personal stories, relatable experiences. And I think this works well when you're not so much the butt of the joke, but you've learned something the hard way. It helps make you human and relatable

[00:20:27] David Olney: and someone we like.

Yeah, laugh at yourself. Don't find someone in the audience to laugh at. There's no faster way to lose everyone than to pick someone out of the audience and basically make them the joke. Another part is to

[00:20:40] Steve Davis: simplify and focus the content. So, the big argument that gets made a number of times Focus on a few key points clearly, powerfully, use some examples and some explanations and just cut stuff out.

In fact, at the time of recording last night, the professor, Professor Longsword, had a speech he was delivering and it hurt, but I cut a huge slab out before it was delivered. It wasn't the A grade material and I thought, you know what, I'm just going to get rid of it. Less is more. is more and that was particularly strong in my head because I had been sitting through a number of presentations earlier in the week by people from the corporate world and they more is less well yeah they they really did seem to lack the empathy for the audience the situational awareness of what it's like to be on the receiving end of them just plodding through a laundry list of bullet points The final bit is reflect and revise.

So continually refine your talk, go back, do some rehearsals, be open to making adjustments. The big tip he said, um, David, is once you've got it, see if you can find someone who's not related to your business or enterprise and deliver it to them. And get them to be honest with you. Where were they lost?

Where did they lose

[00:22:11] David Olney: the thread? Good advice? Absolutely. When I started my PhD, the person running the seminar to get us ready to work on our topic said, Okay, in the next month you need to get to the point where you could explain what you're working on to a taxi driver in rush hour traffic. And they can follow you and keep being interested while driving.

[00:22:30] Steve Davis: That's a good idea. Does it work for Uber drivers too?

[00:22:33] David Olney: Uh, they more often than not have their airpods in. Oh, they do? Just, you know, bopping to the doof.

[00:22:40] Steve Davis: Bopping to the doof. Now there's a talk. Title, uh, I, I hope to have that hit from you in about a month talk. Was it? What'd you say? Bopping to the bopping.

To the doof.

[00:22:50] David Olney: Bopping. We out to the AirPods. All you hear is the doof. Doof. Alright. I hope and you hope they don't

[00:22:55] Steve Davis: steal it. They, they're bopping. That is like a quick run through of the core elements of a TED Talk, which you can hopefully go back, listen to, have a look at the show notes and plod your way through in the back of my mind.

Apart from working with clients one on one, I'm getting an idea, David, of maybe having, every now and then, sort of like a weekend or a Saturday afternoon workshop or something. Ted Camp. Ted Camp. Yes. You get it wrong, we throw you in the poison ivy. But we better not call it Ted Camp, because that might be Talk Camp.

Yes, or what about, um, Bopping to the Doof Camp? Who would sign up to go for an afternoon of bopping to the doof with Steve and David? Uber drivers.

[00:23:40] Caitlin Davis: Our four Ps. Number three, Problems. I asked a question for the best reason possible. Simple curiosity. Oscar Wilde.

[00:23:54] Steve Davis: We have something in the problem bag to talk about in this episode to a degree. We got an email. You got it actually, David. I did. And I forwarded it because I'm only a moderately responsible human. Uh, what was the, I'm just looking up the subject line. And it said This is the subject line of the email that David received, courtesy of TalkedAboutMarketing.

Great article about ChatGPT, Marketing Team, exclamation mark. I guess that grabs your attention, because Well, compliments better than trying to sell us drugs. Yeah, flattery gets you everywhere. Well, somewhere. And so, we're going to read this to you. It's not that long. And the question is, what would you do?

So, hello, Marketing Team. Now, straight away, What would you do? I instantly know this was not seen at all by a human. No. Not one human has touched this. Their spider bot has found an article on our website that uses the term ChatGPT, and it has automatically crafted a generic email. They haven't even bothered to look at the about page to find out who we are.

Huh? And so it starts Hello Marketing Team. So big black mark to start with. I hope you're doing well. Dun dun. Insincerity. If you don't even know my name, you just don't care. Next paragraph. I've just read your incredibly insightful article. Now, interestingly here, there is no space. It goes straight to the quotes.

A marketer's Christmas message written with chat GPT. End quotes. I couldn't even get the AI to format it properly. And then it, Prints out the URL in full, which again, this is the result of a bot. I mean, a human would have just referenced the title. It's our website, we should know where it is. I bet that's there for their convenience.

If there's any mug who gets back in touch with them, they just have to click that on their own link and go and look for it for the first time and work out how they're going to justify the connection. I might be showing my hand. In the way I'm reading this, this was meant to be neutral, David. Um, this invaluable resource is a treasure trove for enthusiasts looking to enhance their understanding of the chat GPT platform.

Well, to a degree it was, but that generic sentence would have applied to any chat GPT blog posts they automated. If you don't mind, I'd like to propose a potential enhancement to your content. Now this would require that you've actually read it. I'm neutral at this point, although my suspicion is you haven't, and they say TopTow has recently launched a dedicated resource on how to use ChatGPT for project management.

You can find it here with the link. Now, nothing in the article, which was my comedic play with ChatGPT to write a Christmas message, had anything that would suggest I'm That it would be, in quotes, enhanced by a link to a chatbot talking about project management. We need that sound effect again, David.

Doom doom. This is just so Blind, rubbishy, typical PR crap that is generated out in the world these days. If they

[00:27:15] David Olney: wanted to win, they could have made two or three modifications by this point, where we would have kept reading, and at least gone, wow. At least they worked to get our meaningful attention, rather than just turn this into something that we immediately decided to put in a podcast.

[00:27:33] Steve Davis: Next sentence. Would you be willing to add this link to your current post so that your readers could benefit from this additional content?

[00:27:39] David Olney: Dun

[00:27:40] Steve Davis: dun. Of course not, you twits. Should you be open to this collaboration, we'd be delighted to share your post across our team members social media profiles, reaching over 10, 000 relevant followers.

My internal team here at Top Tower would also enjoy it. Now, if it's so good,

[00:27:57] David Olney: why haven't you shared it with them already? And then said, you know, we've shared this already, we liked it so much, how could we possibly work together? Correct.

[00:28:06] Steve Davis: Finally, additionally, we can provide access to our meticulously curated list of 200 plus high direct response sites, along with email contacts, offering valuable opportunities for content dissemination and link building.

Well, if this is how they go about link building, I'm not sure how meticulously curated that list is, so cue the sound effect. So, sorry Juan, um Your time is up. Yeah, it was It was fun not knowing you. It was one evolutionary step in starting with a bit of flattery. Because a lot of these companies start with, I've seen everything wrong.

So that's They were smarter. Yeah. It was a better version

[00:28:50] David Olney: of bad. But it's um, no dice, I'm afraid. So if you get an email similar to this one, send it to us and we will use it in a segment to save other people from wondering what they should do. Because what you should do is have a laugh. And suggest to them that they should get a better marketing team.

[00:29:12] Caitlin Davis: Our four Ps, number four. Perspicacity. The one duty we owe to history is to rewrite it. Oscar Wilde.

[00:29:26] Steve Davis: David, at the beginning of this show, like I did reference taking him out to a candlelit dinner. That's because we want to talk about dating ads and in the Persepicacity segment. So just in case you wondered where that was going, it was on script. Well, he was on script, I took it off script, because I thought it would be fun to stop him dead, and it worked.

Dating sites have been around for a while. According to our research, the first online dating site was a company called Match. com. There have been so many others since then. In fact, let's Have a listen, let's go back about 15 years, uh, listening to one of the commercials that Match. com made, because it brings up the main rationale of how they worked.

I think it's an American ad, but it would have been the same message everywhere.

[00:30:25] Ad: Match. com. More dates, more relationships, and more marriages than any other site. I thought, you know, why not? Start for free today.

[00:30:36] Steve Davis: So already, what was being captured here is people saying how they're tired of going to the same old places, doing the same old thing, and yet they end up doing the same old thing just in a different way on these sites, don't they? That's kind of the irony of being a human being. It is, because those things that are tedious are what you have to do.

Yeah, so going out for drinks or seeing movies or doing those sorts of things. I think the difference is, if I reflect on our journey together with this podcast, is that they can actually be mind numbingly soul destroying activities, or you can apply some of the insights of, say, Charles Duhigg's book, Super Communicators, and make, if not all, many of these interactions count and go deeper.

Now that is the messiness of humans trying to connect with each other. And you were quite shocked, recently, hearing the, um, The founder of Bumble. Yeah, Bumble.

[00:31:43] David Olney: So, David, are you on Bumble? I am not on Bumble, because I am a happily married guy, but I have enough, sort of, former students who are on Bumble, and, I'm like, wow, a dating app that doesn't sound like it's utterly awful.

So what makes Bumble different? As I understand it, Bumble is the app, where girls get to decide who they want to talk to and they have to reach out to guys. Oh, I thought that was just called life. Well, you can say that if you'd like. You're sitting far away from the door. Nadia probably can't hear.

Everything's probably okay. And so

[00:32:14] Steve Davis: that's it. And then, uh, Whitney Wolf Hurd, who is the founder and executive chair, uh, you heard her say this. Let's have a listen to her revelation.

[00:32:26] Whitney Wolfe Herd: There is a world where Your dating concierge could go and date for you with other dating concierge, uh, uh, no, no, truly. And then you don't have to talk to 600 people. It will just scan all of San Francisco for you and say these are the three people you really ought to meet. We will not be a dating app in a few years.

Dating will be a component, but we will be a true human connection platform. This is where you will meet anyone that you want to meet. A hiking buddy, a mahjong buddy, um, you know, whatever you're looking for. But our focus with AI is to help create more healthy and equitable relationships.

[00:33:09] David Olney: When I first heard this, my first thought was, wow, we're going to outsource being human. If we haven't already. Well, we've nearly outsourced it, but actually saying that my datebot is going to go out with someone else's datebot to decide if we should go out on a date when we actually don't know how to talk to anyone but our datebot, who is a compliant piece of code, who is designed to ensure that we feel happy and comfortable and spend time in this company's app.

OMG. We're giving up on being human here, listener. It's kind of scary. I don't doubt that the AI is clever. I But the human things are the difficult things, and they're also the remarkable things. And we have to get through the difficult stuff to get to the remarkable stuff. It's all a bit of a worry that the way forward Is to be less human and interact less.

And what we talk about constantly is, Hey, we're going to go into a world where every phone call you make to a business, You know, it's going to be talking to an AI initially before you go through to speak to a human. How much nicer is it going to be in life to talk to people sometimes? And to not know what they're going to say?

And to not know what mood they're going to be in? And to be surprised when someone laughs or smiles? Or engages? And wouldn't you like to practice your human skills as much as possible? So that you can get positive responses from people and have a better day? Wouldn't this be great for your relationships, your work and your life generally?

[00:34:41] Steve Davis: We're putting the perspicacity lens on this for a couple of reasons. Listen to those early dating ads that we just played. Now, we're looking at AI doing all that heavy lifting for you. And so we have to ask ourselves, can anything like those early ads work ever again? Because I guess it depends on once people taste this approach.

If it's successful and works, they won't look back. But, my gut feel from what you've said, David, is We're going to do it because, oh, we don't have to worry about dealing with people. But then they're not going to be equipped for the relationships they get in with.

[00:35:24] David Olney: And it's just messy. It's sad. I think the implication is here going forward in small business.

Our customers are going to be less experienced in interacting with people and our potential staff are going to be less experienced of dealing with people until We all realize that we miss dealing with people. And then the opening will be there for the company that can bring back dealing with people.

In a really nice human way. Yeah. So be ready for that, and have your skills ready, and help your people be ready. Because humans are social creatures. We can play with technology like this for a while, to try and hide from the discomfort of being human. But at the end of the day, we're all humans. We revel in being human.

We do. And on that

[00:36:09] Steve Davis: note, we don't have any candles, David. Will you light up your desk? Grab those matches we talked about earlier. Let's do that.

[00:37:27] Caitlin Davis: Thank you for listening to Talking About Marketing. If you enjoyed it, please leave a rating or a review in your favourite podcast app.

And if you found it helpful, please share it with others. Steve and David always welcome your comments and questions, so send them to podcast at talkedaboutmarketing. com. And finally, the last word to Oscar Wilde. There's only one thing worse than being talked about, and that's not being talked about.

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